• 2018 Ford F150 Diesel Is Here: Power Stroke V6 with a Goal of 30 MPG on the Highway (All Specs)

    2018 ford f150 3.0L v6 power stroke v6
    2018 Ford F150: 3.0L Power Stroke V6

    Ford officially introduces a 3.0L Power Stroke turbo-diesel V6 for the 2018 Ford F-150. Yep, the wait for a diesel half-ton truck from Ford is nearly over. What are all the specifications, when will it be available? All of the information is here for you.

    2018 Ford F150 Power Stroke

    Let’s get straight to business. The new 3.0L V6 is rated at 250 hp @ 3,250 rpm and 440 lb-ft of torque @ 1,750 rpm. The engine is mated to Ford’s 10-speed automatic transmission, and it will be offered in 2WD or 4×4 configurations (more on this later).

    How does it compare to competition? Ram’s 3.0L EcoDiesel V6 has a rating of 240 hp and 420 lb-ft, but we know that FCA is working on the next generation of the turbo-diesel for the Jeep Wrangler that may eventually find its way into the next generation Ram 1500. The rating on the next iteration of the 3.0L EcoDiesel V6 is 260 hp and 442 lb-ft of torque. We do not yet know whether GM will offer a half-ton turbo-diesel in the Silverado and Sierra or what its rating might be.

    Fuel Economy

    Perhaps the most important number for the F-150 Diesel is the expected fuel economy. Ford expects that 85% of F-150 Diesel customer will choose a towing package with intent to tow. These customers expect higher fuel economy from a diesel. Ford is officially targeting a big and round 30 MPG on the highway. EPA emissions and fuel economy certification is not yet finalized, but Ford is confident the certification will go smoothly and the 30 MPG will be confirmed. For comparison, a Ram 1500 EcoDiesel HFE is rated at 29 MPG on the highway.

    This truck will also offer engine start/stop feature (that can be disabled with a push of button upon each ignition cycle). The feature is enabled by default to maximize the fuel economy ratings.

    The 3.0L Power Stroke V6 will require the use of the Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) to meet the emissions regulations. The F150 will carry a 5.4 gallon DEF tank and a 26 gallon diesel fuel tank.

    The 3.0L turbo-diesel V6 was known under the Lion codename is now officially a “Power Stroke”. Is it simply a marketing and branding exercise? Ford says the F150 3.0L V6 diesel has been upgraded to meet heavier payload and towing loads, as well uses in extreme hot and cold environments. Ford upgraded the crank shaft, rod and main bearings, along with several other updates to make the engine suitable for truck duty. This is also what differentiates it from the 3.0L diesels use in Land Rover and Ranger Rover SUVs, although the engine has the same architecture, and it is still built in the UK.

    Towing and Hauling

    Ford says the 2018 F150 Diesel is rated up to 2,020 lbs of maximum payload and 11,400 lbs of maximum towing capacity. Granted that these ratings are for a basic 2WD model, the towing rating is considerably higher than the maximum 9,200 lbs with the current Ram 1500 EcoDiesel.

    The truck will be available with a choice of two rear-axle ratios: 3.31 and a 3.55. The 3.31 rear end has a Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR for truck + trailer) of 16,000 lbs, while the 3.55 allows for maximum towing with a GCWR of 17,100 lbs.

    Ford paid special attention to noise vibration and harshness characteristics. Naturally, the diesel engine is a bit louder at idle than a gasoline counterpart. Ford added strategically placed sound deadening materials to improve the overall driving experience. We have not been able to drive one of these beasts yet, so we cannot yet confirm or deny these claims.

    Is there anything missing? Yes, the F-150 Power Stroke V6 does not offer an exhaust brake. All heavy duty trucks offer an exhaust brake to help slow the loaded truck when descending a mountain. Our Ike Gauntlet™ testing suggests that smaller displacement engines need help descending a steep grade. For example, the midsize Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon diesels offer an exhaust brake. While, the Ram 1500 EcoDiesel and the Nissan Titan XD Cummins do not. When asked, Ford says that the grade shifting transmission mode and the brakes are adequate and an exhaust brake is not necessary.

    Availability and Pricing

    Ford is taking a two-pronged approach to launch the 2018 F150 Diesel. Consumers will be able to purchase a F-150 Power Stroke in higher trim levels only: Lariat, King Ranch, and Platinum. Commercial fleet managers will be able to purchase the engine in XL or XLT trims.

    No matter who you are, the diesel F150 will be offered in either extended or crew cab configurations (Super Cab or Super Crew) with either 2WD or 4×4. Three bed lengths will be available as well: extended cab with a 6.5 or 8-foot bed, or a crew cab with a 5.5 or 6.5-foot bed.

    How much moola will it cost? If you price out an F150 Lariat with a 2.7L EcoBoost V6, you will then have to add $4,000 for the 3.0L turbo-diesel V6. If you are pricing out a King Ranch with a 5.0L V8, then the diesel will cost an additional $3,000. In the end, the turbo-diesel is the most expensive engine option for the F-150. It costs $2,400 more than a 3.5L EcoBoost V6.

    What is the most affordable retail F150 Diesel? It will be around $46,015 if you get a Lariat Super Cab 6.5-foot bed 4×2 with no additional options. Where is the top end? A loaded F150 Platinum crew cab 6.5-foot bed 4×4 will ring the bell at around $68,305.

    Dealership orders begin in mid-January and the trucks should arriving at the dealer in the Spring of 2018. Ford expects 5% of all F-150 sales to be equipped with the diesel. The warranty remains at 5-years or 60,000 miles. The F150 will be assembled at the Dearborn Truck Plant in Michigan.

    Highway MPG: 30 MPG is targeted
    Max Towing: 11,400 lbs
    Max Payload: 2,020 lbs
    Max GCWR: 17,100 lbs
    Fuel Tank: 26 gal
    DEF Tank: 5.4 gal

    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov is an Automotive Enthusiast, Producer, Reviewer, Videographer, Writer, Software Engineer, Husband, Father, and Friend.

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    253 thoughts on “2018 Ford F150 Diesel Is Here: Power Stroke V6 with a Goal of 30 MPG on the Highway (All Specs)

    1. I’m a bit disappointed. 250HP is OK for around town, but for interstate passing, and certainly for occasional heavy towing on the interstate, this just isn’t enough. Look at the ecodiesel performance on the Ike. Sure the ford is lighter, but in loaded configuration that’s a minimal percentage difference. I’d hope for 275 at the least. Until we see what GM does I believe the ecoboost V6’s will remain the best option for most.

      1. You haven’t even driven it. It’s 250hp at 3500rpm, and 200hp at 2,000rpm. 440 lb-ft between 1750 and 2500rpm. This is where you will spend most of your time. Stop looking at peak numbers, this will be awesome. I predict a 0-60 in 8 seconds, but where it’s really going to shine is every day driving.

        At 2000rpm, the 5.0 puts out 75hp/200lb-ft
        The 6.2 put out about 100hp/300lb-ft
        The first gen 3.5EB puts out 150hp/400lb-ft

        So at low rpm, the 3.0 diesel will accelerate quicker and more effortlessly than any of the gassers.

      2. @Dan
        We are spoiled, My daily driver is a 7.3l IDI 185hp and 338@1400rpm. While it no longer carry my tools and equipment on a daily basis, when it is loaded up 2600lb in the bed it will still run 75mph in 5th gear. about 10mpg.
        We have come a long way, that kind of power in a 1/2 ton pickup and we feel it is inadequate. I am saying this because for a moment I felt exactly how you felt.

        1. That’s exactly what I was thinking. I remember my 01 Duramax raised the bar and was impressive with 300 hp and 520 ft lbs with a 5 speed and heavy truck. I’m sure this truck will do very well.

          1. Dan, Funny Ford releases these specifications now. They might be late and I said it already and I was right. Ford is wasting their time on diesel variants. Just got this e-mail from Workhorse.

            Happy 2018! On behalf of everyone here at Workhorse, thank you for your continued support of our W-15 electric pick-up truck. Over the past months we have received thousands of emails offering support, ideas, and inputs. Thanks to you and the tireless efforts of the Workhorse R&D team I am thrilled to announce that we have opened W-15 reservations for everyone! We believe that the W-15 will be the safest, highest performance, lowest total cost of ownership pick-up truck.

            By clicking the link you will be redirected to the webpage where you can place your reservation. The cost to pre-order a Workhorse W-15 is $1000 per truck, which is fully refundable. The purchase price of the vehicle is estimated at $52,500 and we expect the W-15 to be eligible under current legislation for a $7,500 tax credit for US citizens. The specifications and additional information on the vehicle including total cost of ownership, safety, and performance features can be found here.

            Workhorse currently has over 5,300 W-15 trucks on pre-order from fleet operators. These pre-orders will start to deliver in late 2018. We will keep you informed as delivery dates approach in 2019. Order now and reserve your place in line!

            Best Regards,

            Tony Bort
            W-15 Consumer Advocate
            Workhorse Group
            (513) 582-1773

            Link is waiting moderation but go to Workhorse site for the specs. Be two days before they approve the link. If approved.

            1. Bernie – That survey is exactly what I was saying. Automakers know it’s a bad move but they have no choice

            2. Bad move because they can’t compete with how far ahead Tesla is, no choice because electric drive is a superior power source and its cleaner and cheaper.

      3. Funny Ford releases these specifications now. They might be late and I said it already and I was right. Ford is wasting their time on diesel variants. Just got this e-mail from Workhorse.

        “Happy 2018! On behalf of everyone here at Workhorse, thank you for your continued support of our W-15 electric pick-up truck. Over the past months we have received thousands of emails offering support, ideas, and inputs. Thanks to you and the tireless efforts of the Workhorse R&D team I am thrilled to announce that we have opened W-15 reservations for everyone! We believe that the W-15 will be the safest, highest performance, lowest total cost of ownership pick-up truck.

        By clicking the link you will be redirected to the webpage where you can place your reservation. The cost to pre-order a Workhorse W-15 is $1000 per truck, which is fully refundable. The purchase price of the vehicle is estimated at $52,500 and we expect the W-15 to be eligible under current legislation for a $7,500 tax credit for US citizens. The specifications and additional information on the vehicle including total cost of ownership, safety, and performance features can be found here.

        Workhorse currently has over 5,300 W-15 trucks on pre-order from fleet operators. These pre-orders will start to deliver in late 2018. We will keep you informed as delivery dates approach in 2019. Order now and reserve your place in line!”

        Best Regards,

        Tony Bort
        W-15 Consumer Advocate
        Workhorse Group
        (513) 582-1773

        And here is the link


        1. The Workhorse W15 is not a pure electric truck. It is a hybrid as a pure electric drive with a gas range extender.

          That’s the way to do it. Although I would rather have a diesel range extender. Later, a micro turbine will be the best, or even a hydrogen fuel cell (but that is furtre).

    2. If I was going to getting an F-150 I would not thr diesel this for one reason. That you not cannot permanently disable the start stop and you have to push the button every time. That is a bad move and something they need to take a look at.

      1. There are several permanent ways to disable to auto Stop/Start. It can be done by the dealer with the IDS computer, by a user with the free FORScan software and a cheap OBDII adapter, or by a physical modification to the wiring behind the switch. All have successfully been done on gas F-150’s with the same arrangement.

        By the way, for 2018 ALL F-150’s regardless of engine have the auto stop-start feature.

        1. I don’t know what the big deal is, I’ve used my autostart/stop since 2015. It has saved me countless engine idle hours. What has been the problem with this feature?

          1. Nothing, but some people find it unsettling. It definitely does reduce air conditioning output pretty drastically. I have it on my 2018 Raptor, works very well.

    3. Nice package, looking forward to the Ike Gauntlet test. Interesting that the cams look to be belt driven.
      At an estimated 5% of sales, it is clearly here to compete with Ram and let no stone be unturned to attract customers to the Ford brand.
      I had 200 Ford 3.2L Powerstroke diesels in a dual rear wheel fleet. I also had several hundred MB Sprinters with the 3.0L diesel, same applications, same build, same weights. The Ford did almost 10% better on fuel than the MB Sprinters. I will follow this engine with a great deal of interest.

        1. Yep, timing belt reminds me my first car in NA, Chrysler Dodge Caravan with 3.0L V6 and timing belt. I bought it preowned from dealer and timing belt broke after few years. No damage was done, because I was moving slowly through intersection, engine just died, but I was not aware, that engine had a belt. Could be much worse.
          I don’t want to see belt in my life again.
          They are very common on European cheep small cars. I am little disappointed by ford,but not surprised, because Heckett said, he is going to cut funding for everything and save left and right. I think it’s a wrong decisions for a long run. I was hoping, that ford would be more aggressive to push RAM, but now it looks like Me too.
          Expensive and not robust. It almost looks like Ford doesn’t want anyone to buy it.

          1. @Zviera,
            While I generally dislike belts as well, your comment about being very common on “European cheap small cars” is not accurate. They are common on very expensive European cars as well, including some of the highest performance cars in the world. Audi A8 with the 4.2L V8 used a belt for many years, Ferrari used (and may still use) timing belts, Land Rover 200/300TDI engines use a belt, I believe the TD5 Rover diesel uses a belt.

            I do generally agree that I dislike belts because it is a maintenance item at around 100k miles, and many times the owner cannot perform this maintenance him/herself. On the other hand, a timing belt is quieter, lighter, and a timely replacement causes no problems. It also eliminates an oil leak point since the front timing cover requires no oil inside with a belt…but does with a chain. Timing chains can stretch and yet many people do not recognize a problem until the chain breaks or jumps a tooth, causing engine failure much of the time.

            I see the 3.0L EcoDiesel uses a timing chain, which I prefer unless the F-150 belt change is very easy.

            All heavy duty diesels (from the HD pickups all the way up through semi-trucks) use direct-drive timing gears from the crank to the cam to the high pressure pump. Also interesting how all the small pickup diesels (2.8L Duramax, 3.0L Powerstroke, 3.0L EcoDiesel) all utilize double overhead cams to operate 4 valves per cylinder but the HD pickup diesels all use a single camshaft to operate 4 valves per cylinder.

            1. Yes, all of my cars , Toyotas, VW, Fiat had timing belt. I am not saying, it’s a bad , but it’s much cheaper and less robust,than chain. Belt can break, slip ,when under heavy engine acceleration, needs to be replaced more often. Sports cars doesn’t have it. In this days it’s better, when computer will tell you,when to do which maintenance procedure, but it’s expensive.
              Timing belts are lighter, less expensive, and operate more quietly.
              Chain is more durable. Saved me a thousands. I would choose chain over belt anytime. I was just lucky, I didn’t destroy my engine. I can’t imagine to pay $4,000 premium for diesel and not to get the best, most expensive timing solution.
              This will limit also any Hp tuning. I am disappointed, because I thought, that ford is going to push another manufacturers more. This is step back.

            2. @Zviera,
              Not sure what you mean your statement “Belt can break, slip ,when under heavy engine acceleration, needs to be replaced more often. Sports cars doesn’t have it.”

              I mentioned Ferrari uses timing belts. These are certainly sports cars, no? Timing belts are very tough rubber with metal mesh wires inside to make them strong and stretch-resistant. They are cogged with rubber teeth. The belt is more than strong enough to resist any acceleration the engine crank can provide, and easily turns the cams and valves. Over many thousands of hot / cold cycles, the metal cords inside the belt can stretch and become brittle, just like the rubber itself. This is why the manufacturer sets a replacement mileage. Typically, the mileage gives a lot of leeway before a belt break is really likely. For example, my neighbor’s 2001 Volvo S80 twin-turbo recommended a 90k mile belt change interval. He waited until 119k miles, and the belt appeared fine.

              My biggest concern with a belt is simply the added (required) maintenance item. But honestly, timing chains can stretch as well and many also should be replaced, although they can typically go longer than 175k miles. Some chains are more durable than others and will outlast the engine.

            3. I replace variety of timing belts every day. They are great for machinery applications, when they break, no damage is done. I don’t want to see them in my life on my engine. High and freezing temperatures is the enemy.
              Chain is much more expensive and robust solution for the engine. With hydraulic tensioners and proper design, no maintenance is needed. It costs much more, but it’s worth it.
              I smell many broken engines ,Hp tuners and second owners are going to deal with.
              Ferrari is not good example of timing belt. 25000 miles of service interval.
              BMW has chains, designed for the life of the engine, no maintenance is needed.

            4. @Zviera,
              Ferrari is probably a bad example. But my point is that if a vehicle has a timing belt with a 100k change interval, you will not have any problems right on up to 100k miles and probably somewhat beyond. But if you change the belt on time…no problems ever.

        2. A timing belt isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Mainly it means that an owner jist has to change it at a designated interval. There are a LOT of cars our there running timing belts that are very reliable cars. Look at Toyota’s 3.4 and 4.7l engines. Both good engines, both timing belt driven. The baby Dmax has one. Maybe this is a misstep mayne not, just saying wait and see before condemning it. MPG is the reason your seeing that over a chain or gear driven setup.

          1. Timing belt is much cheeper to produce, more expensive to maintain. Ford saves money, charges hefty premium for diesel and customer will pay again for maintenance. Hp tuning is going to be an issue as well.
            Like I said, I had just timing belt all my life,before I came to NA, but my last 4 cars has a chain and I don’t want to see a belt in my life anymore, because one of them broke.

            1. I’ve had more problems with timing chains than belts in my vehciles. Timing chain guides in particular seldom last more than 120,000 miles.

              I think the myth of timing chain reliability is largely built on pushrod engines with a short timing chain attached to a camshaft. And in those engines, I prefer timing gears…I’ve never had an issue with one of those.

              This 3.0 belt looks relatively simple to replace. Two idlers, one tensioner and the belt. If they design the timing belt cover right, it should be pretty straightforward.

            2. They recommend to replace a tensioner as well. I am not saying it’s a big deal, but for me the chain is the first choice, than gears, if possible. -40°C ~ -40F every year for a week. You should see, how belt properties looks like. It’s brittle and shrinks. No hydraulic tensioner. I will stick with HEMI and short chain. Most reliable engine on the market.
              2016 Ford ecoblue diesel has belt in oil. I don’t know if it’s better, never heard of this before. Inline 6 with one chain and one hydraulic tensioner would be my choice. Like BMW does.

            3. belt looks a lot eaiser to inspect at regular maintenance intervals/replace. Try checking your timing chain on a normal v8 engine.

            4. I never inspected chain and will never do. It lasts as long as engine for me.
              I want to know, how exactly do you inspect belt. It might look perfectly fine from outside, but internal aramid fibers could be broken and belt might break right after your inspection.

      1. Yep, fleet sales and worker engine might be a fit, and so will folks looking for 30mpg. But isn’t this an upper end trim engine? And most fleet owners have turned away from diesel based on the high cost of entry and operating cost (obviously fuel burn excepted).

        And who wouldn’t take 25mpg in exchange for say 300HP (you listenting GM?) when needed.

        What’s really a shame is it appears the Lion V-6 could have been taken to 3.3l. Just as the Navistar/ford initiative did for the Lion V-8. Granted they narrowed the V-6, but I believe things like bore spacing and etc remained the same.

        Anybody know more on that?

        1. Things I’d love to see this year:
          F150 3.5EB vs 3.0PS fuel economy loop- corrected for fuel cost, as well as range calculations based on the larger tank the diesel can’t have.
          Titan XD diesel vs Andre’s old Duramax Ike mashup the numbers are close.
          V8 gas big tow test- GM 6.2, Tundra, Titan XD gas, 1500 Hemi, F150 5.0…
          Diesel van test (GASP) Sprinter, Transit and Express.

          1. Would we correct that for the fuel cost in your area, where they fill it up, or some other arbitrary location? Diesel fuel in my town costs exactly the same as RUG.

    4. Andre, I suspect there is about to be a lot of folks talking about the superiority of torque over HP for towing and etc.

      For some that will be based on a poor understanding of the direct correlation of the two. Perhaps TFLT needs to provide a primer to its audience on torque and HP? I’n the interim this link is a solid start. Hopefully you don’t mind…


      1. Dan…………..tried that already. You will be met with hostility. Culture has allowed most people into believing torque is something different than what it really is. I’ve actually offered that link before. People just want to believe that torque is some special type of power.

      2. @Dan,
        Your article is interesting but because of the realities of engines, the torque of a diesel engine is going to make a superior towing vehicle than one without. Your article discusses an example of a diesel engine with 400lb-ft and a gas engine with 200lb-ft. They both can go up the hill at 70mph, sure. But the gas engine will be using more fuel, and what would be more interesting is stopping on the hill while towing a load, then restarting. The diesel engine with more torque will more smoothly and quickly pull away with the load, and get up to speed more quickly than the gas truck. I think that is what it meant by torque is better for towing.

        Diesel enhances that because the torque comes on so low. For example, let’s compare the 2018 F-150 with the diesel vs the 2.7L EcoBoost. The 2.7L produces a very respectable 400lb-ft at a low 2750RPM. Yet the new 3.0L Powerstroke produces 440lb-ft at 1750RPM. Both use the same transmission, but the gas engine produces peak horsepower much higher on the rev scale, so it will need to pull through each gear longer than the diesel before shifting. It will also need to downshift sooner. In an unloaded 0-60 race, the 2.7L will mop the floor with the new Powerstroke. But starting on a hill towing a trailer, the results would likely be pretty close, with less fuel consumption and a more relaxed experience in the diesel.

        1. Troverman, I get what you are saying. More torque at any RPM is better than less torque at any RPM, but that is only because it means you are producing more hp. The problem with the diesels this size is that, while they produce a solid torque number, they are lacking in the HP department. So its great for towing on flats and holding a tall gear on minor grades, once you get to the big stuff the engine will need to downshift, and it will only produce 250 hp when it does.

          If it was solely about the peak torque rating then the Ram Ecodiesel would pull the ike better than the 2.7, and as good as the 3.5 EB. Isnt and it doesnt.

          I would love to see a 11,xxx lb trailer behind this motor going up a 7% grade. I dont think it would be pretty.

          1. Troverman aknowledged that HP determines the speed up the hill. But if you would tow that 11k with the diesel and a NA 3.5 v6 with a 10 speed, tje times may be close (11 minites?) but the diesel would be more relaxed and use less fuel.

            1. Exactly. It will be fun to see TFL run this diesel F-150 up the hill and compare to the other F-150’s. Ford obviously sees a case for selling this truck, so beyond empty towing mpg numbers, I imagine they think this will make a very good towing vehicle.

    5. 2.7 EB beats this pretty bad. We seen what it did to the Ram, no challenge at all. The 2.7 gas turbo beats it bad. The only think this diesel will be good for is fleet owners who pull all the time and even then they will likely lose money on the added cost with diesel. Expect fuel prices to drop a lot with electric on the rise. This fuether lowers the profit ratio between mpg vs diesel or gas. You cant save on mpg with gas vs diesel if fuel is cheap. I wonder if the 30mpg is aimed at fleet vehicles as only fleet owners can get the base models. A Lariat with the added weight might not be able to claim 30mpg to the general public.

      Not impressed at all with the numbers. This is a slow truck. Expect good mpg with anything that is slow, but at least it can legally pull but very slowly.

      1. It is slow (but not as slow as the EcoDiesel)…but for *right now* it will have the best fuel economy of any pickup truck on the market. That means something to some people, even though Ford only expects 5% of total sales to be this diesel.

    6. With 1140 tongue weight. That leaves 780 lbs in the bed and cab.

      Not generous but doable for a family of 5. But that means all gear is in the trailer. But with load of fuel you have about 150lbs of diesel also.

      I’m not sure why they don’t build the truck or at least conform their limits to reality.

      29 gallons of fuel is okay for interstates. But for high country roads I like my current 40.

      Is there a problem with exhaust brakes on v6’s?

      Only on high dollar trims means I would go with the 5.0.

      1. @Buddy – the fuel tank is actually only 26 gallons, not 29. Keep in mind the most popular configuration of Super Duty truck (the crew cab, short bed) had only a 26 gallon diesel tank from 2011-2016. Also keep in mind 26 gallons times 30 mpg is 780 miles if you were doing all highway. I think its pretty reasonable.

          1. Alex,
            I camp in the Sierras for days at a time. Not many stations up there. At those high elevations on 2 lane curving roads you stay in a low gear most of the time. Therefore 5 mpg in anything is great mileage.

            I fill up at the foothills. And stay until it’s time to get gas. Lol

            That’s why I said I’d like a bigger tank.

            On interstates I can get 13-14 mpg towing so like you said 26-29 is okay.

            1. My 2014 F150 with a 36 gallon tank has gotten ~750 miles before. The key is that I can get 350+ towing which is important cause that means I can generally get the long distances between gas stations out here in Utah with my trailer and not worry about filling up when i still have half a tank left.

              i had a nissan frontier rental a few months ago and the damn thing barely made it to 300 miles driving empty. Im like if I ever towed with one I might not make it to my campsite without filling 4 times.

      2. I was considering the 2018 F150 5.0L until I read about the super thin spray/weld cylinder liners, more cost cutting from Ford, under the disguise of saving 8 lbs weight, cast iron cylinder liners were bullet proof and trouble free and rebuildable.

    7. Knock the numbers if you wish. But that’s more power than the first 7.3 Power Strokes that everyone reminisces about. They were only 215HP/425TQ.

      I’m sure johnny doe and papajim will have a lot to say bout this eventhough Chevy doesn’t offer one.

      1. Those people are idiots because they are only looking at peak numbers, with no attention to where they are in the rpm range. The diesel puts out more power and torque at 2,000rpm than any of the gas engines.

        1. I don’t really see your point Alex. The low end power of this diesel is great but it doesn’t make it better. Simply stepping on the throttle will raise the rpm of competing engines to a power level that the 3.0 can’t achieve.

          1. Actually, Distinctively, flooring the throttle on a 2.7L EcoBoost will not cause it to produce more torque than this new diesel. The EcoBoost will still be producing 40lb-ft less torque, and will be producing that torque at 1000 RPM higher, and using more fuel.

            Diesel isn’t about speed. It’s about effortless torque, less downshifting, and better fuel economy. It isn’t fun towing in the mountains listening to a screaming wound out gas V8 all day.

            1. Distinctively didnt mention torque, he mentioned power. Because at the end of the day the peak HP rating of your engine determines how quickly a motor can tow a certain size trailer up a certain grade. If you have more hp you can go faster. If you have less you go slower. You can have a ferrari motor with 500 hp and 300 ft-lbs and do more work then a 250 hp 440 ft-lb diesel.

              And the EB’s dont scream all day in the mountains. The 3.5 just towed an nearly 12000 lb trailer up the ike at like 3000-3500 RPM doing 65mph like it was nothing. It was better than the Ram ED which was pegged at 4k.

              You know what wasnt fun. Towing a 5000lb wake board boat with my 2.8L diesel liberty in New hampshire. sure it makes a fantastic 370 ft-lbs at 2000 RPM’s but anything beyond 3% grade or so and that thing was floored and spinning obnoxiously away at 4k.

            2. @The real jay s
              You said “. You can have a ferrari motor with 500 hp and 300 ft-lbs and do more work then a 250 hp 440 ft-lb diesel.”

              You misunderstand what these units represent. When it comes to an engine torque is a measure of how much work and HP is a measure of how fast that work can be done.

              So in your example the Ferrari engine, (motors are electric) can not do more work at 300 lbs-ft then 440 lbs-ft diesel. But it can do less work faster at 500hp vs 250hp.

            3. Rough_idle – Alex is correct. With proper gearing (not necessarily possible in the real world) a 900+ hp F1 would out tow a 900+ lb/ft HD diesel truck.

              Durability and cooling is another story, but raw capability to accomplish work always goes to HP

            4. Rough Idle,

              The torque at the wheel is higher with the higher HP motor so I am not wrong. If you had a diesel with 500hp at 4000 rpm it needs 656 ft-lbs. a Ferrari making 500 hp at 8000 rpm needs 328 ft-lbs. but for the two to be traveling at the same mph while the engines are at 4000 and 8000 rpm, the ferrari needs 2x the gear reduction. 2×328 is 656 at the wheel after gear reduction. Same as the Diesel engine that produces 2 x the torque at the flywheel.

              So torque really doesn’t tell you much. 1000 ft lbs at 1 rpm is gunna be terribly slow to get anywhere.

            5. At the end of day these 3.0 diesels are not going to out perform some of the gas options out there. Its not just about performance. But they may give the driving expierience certain people are looking for. Be able to tax the engine either with a load or bigger tires and require less fuel to move the truck and offer a better suited more relaxed daily driver in those applications. But wont win a race. They may not be better value either depending on how one may measure value.

            6. I don’t believe I said anything inaccurately. I never mentioned the EcoBoost, I said its no fun listening to a wound-out gas V8 in the hills pulling a heavy load all day.

              Torque is what gets the load moving. You guys are throwing all this mathematics out to try to reason why this engine would be as good as that engine. Sure…theoretically you are correct. But if you have a very high horsepower engine producing very little torque, your gear ratios would need to be extremely low geared in order to actually get the load moving. Sure, once rolling, you might be able to go up the hill as fast or faster than some of these truck diesels. But imagine having to come to a stop on a hill in a truck with 600HP and 297lb-ft with 10k behind you. You’d have a heck of a time getting going! So the IKE Gauntlet, fun as it is, does not test stopping a truck on a steep grade with a max trailer load behind it and trying to accelerate away. But manufacturers do, and we customers occasionally encounter these situations.
              Torque is nice. You can get the exact sense of what I’m talking about if you drive a standard shift. A diesel car with a stick…you can just about let the clutch out in first with no additional throttle input. A four cylinder Honda? Not so much. You need to feather the throttle to get it moving most of the time. Same thing between letting the clutch out on a torque-rich Harley vs a Jap sportbike.

            7. I would venture to guess that any f150 motor or other v8 rated to tow the same as this diesel will get that 11,000 lb trailer going on a hill. We are not talking about towing the titanic. This is why we have automatics with torque converters. And the diesel will out pull them sure, for the first 3 seconds. Once the diesel reaches 3250 rpm it’s gunna shift to 2nd or fall on its face(that torque curve ain’t looking to hot after 3250) while that v8 is sitting in 1st until 6000 rpm maintaining the increased heat reduction. After that it’s over. The v8 sits at its peak power as it continues to shift away.

          2. @the real jay s
            Its not that your necassarily wrong. In your example of the ferrari and the diesel they could achieve the same amount of work done theoretically given your parameters. The diesel would need to have 2984 rpm and the ferrari engine would need to have 8753 rpm. But so what. The ferrari engine probably cant rev much higher or accomplish more work in a given amount than that. The diesel may still have room to go up. Really doesnt matter, what I was getting at your misuse of the words.

            Torque is the capacity to do work. Torque is a rotating force produced by an engine’s crankshaft. The more torque an engine produces, the greater its ability to perform work. The measurement is the same as work, but slightly different. Since torque is a vector (acting in a certain direction), it’s quantified by the units pound-feet and newton-meters.

            Horse power is the rate of completing work (or applying torque) in a given amount of time.

            Key words in a given amoumt of time.
            I sincerely intend not to be rude or an ass but basically you shouldn’t go spouting off arbitrary numbers trying to prove a point unless you use the proper use of the words to describe it. Otherwise you end up spreading non sense cuz your point did not prove you right or wrong. Im just high lighting what seems like you don’t fully understand what your spreading and its not necassarily accurate. But your NOT out to lunch or anything. Your point of its not just the tq numbers that matter is valid.

        2. Alex Audi makes a gas turbo that is a 2.9L and puts out 442Ft-lbs of torque at 1900RPM all the way to 5000RPM where it makes 450HP.

          We are also seeing these gas turbo’s in Kia and Hyundai where they are making 260Lb ft of torque at just 1350RPM in a 2.0L gas turbo. If Hyundai buys out Ram you can expect a gas turbo like this to go in a truck

            1. It wont happen and if it does it will be a mistake or a hallelujah moment in hopes to sell an old technology before electric mainstreams everything.

        3. The problem with that Alex, is that when you hit a grade, even the 440 ft-lbs wont hold you at 2000 RPMs. Its gunna need to downshift in search of my HP and its gunna be spinning the same or more RPM’s as an ecoboost. The thing is, the ecoboost has enough power to tow in 6(at least my 2014) on flat highway and some grades without downshifting so the added torque is kinda pointless in a sense.

          1. The 10-speed transmission will be shared with all F-150’s save the base 3.3L engine. The higher torque rating (produced at a lower RPM) will actually help the diesel hold a grade in top gear longer than the gas engine.

            One interesting comparison is the 2011 Ford Super Duty, initial release. The horsepower between the gas V8 and diesel V8 were almost identical (385HP gas, 390HP diesel). The diesel produced 330lb-ft more. Towing the same load, even with the lower numeric gears of the diesel, the Powerstroke would hold grades in a higher gear vastly longer than the gas engine.

            Ford’s gas EcoBoosts hold grades better than any other non-turbo pickup engine, but they still cannot quite compete with the diesel.

            1. Troverman,
              That’s because the largest Ecoboost is only 3.5L. Make one that is 6.7 and it will compete and destroy the diesel performance on everything except mileage!

            2. Completely agree Drifter. The turbo is what gave the diesel its name. Now that gas motors are adding it to their ammunition the gas turbo is winning with very similar mpg. But electric is going to be the nail in the coffin for both very shortly.

            3. And thats great. All it takes is a 6.7 L with a massive turbo to make near gasoline HP of smaller displacement.

            4. @Drifter64: If you made a large displacement EcoBoost, sure it would destroy diesel performance except for fuel efficiency and likely the gas engine would still produce peak torque at a higher RPM than a diesel. But fuel efficiency is very important, and a 6.7L EcoBoost would be getting horrific fuel economy. Less than half a 6.7L diesel, in my estimates. Gas engines cannot run at the compression ratios of the diesel for one thing; diesel fuel contains more energy than gasoline fuel as well.

            5. @Rambro: not true, diesels have been in use for decades without turbos, and many still do not have turbos. Take farm tractors, for example. The diesel tractor was more reliable, much more efficient, and produced more torque than the gasoline tractor. That is why the gasoline tractor completely disappeared. Those advantages still hold true today.

    8. Yea that is the same with all 3. Diesels.

      But I think the old ones came in earlier.

      1700 rpm is a lot better than a gas engine.

      But I think the old diesels were all down about 1100 rpm.

    9. Well I had to look twice a 3 litre Diesel pulling a Caravan. Not Australia but the US. Tow ratings would fall to about 8,200lbs here for the same combination

    10. TFLT: “What is the most affordable retail F150 Diesel? It will be around $46,015 if you get a Lariat Super Cab 6.5-foot bed 4×2 with no additional options.”

      Gee, guys, I don’t know. This F-150 diesel is coming awfully close to 250/2500 HD prices. My 2017 Ram “Big Horn” Cummins Crew Cab 2500 went $51K, hauls almost 3000 lbs; tows 16,000 lbs, and gets 23 mpg on fuel that is $1.74 per gallon here. (And yes, it has an exhaust brake.)

      But then, I was not convinced that the Ram EcoDiesel was all that cost effective / performance effective for me either….


      1. I agree Bernie. Half ton diesels just don’t do anything for me. Sure they can achieve better mpg but at what cost? DEF fluid, more expensive oil changes, diesel fuel has always been more money per gallon around my area. Some people say diesels last longer but modern gasoline engines also last a long time too. So to me, I just don’t see a good business case for a half ton diesel. Even the titan diesel seems to be underwhelming.

        1. Everybody gets stuck on fuel economy. In reality, fuel economy is virtually meaningless in the true cost of ownership of a vehicle. Depreciation is the biggest cost of ownership. Maintenance and fuel economy are fractions of a percent differences in total cost

          1. I bet the insurance on the truck probably cost nearly what the fuel does. And if you spend money on a lift and big tires after bragging about the mpg’s don’t talk to me. The only way these small diesels might make financial sense is if you buy a base model truck and drive an insane amount of miles each year.

      2. @Bernie,
        To be fair, a Lariat is a fair bit more luxury than the Big Horn (which is still a very nice truck, don’t get me wrong). That said, your truck is a much better tow platform than any half-ton.

        I’d sure like to know where you are buying diesel for $1.74. I’m paying $3.15 in NH / VT. Diesel has spiked sharply upwards during this extended cold snap (regular gas is $2.45 / gallon). Diesel suppliers also did not add enough #1 Arctic Diesel to the blend and many, many diesels have not been running recently. My own 2017 Ford refused to run with frozen fuel filters on two occasions in the last week. Now I’m driving 30 minutes to buy fuel at a truck stop.

            1. So even if you do achieve 30% better MPG’s you still a 25% price difference to overcome. So you save 5% on gas which equates to $10 a month if you drive a non-absurd amount of miles each year.

        1. Troverman – – –

          T: “I’d sure like to know where you are buying diesel for $1.74.”

          WOW! Did I ever mess up! Sorry. I meant $2.74!
          And I live in Appleton, WI. Seems that petroleum prices are generally are a bit lower in the MW (comparatively), but I could be wrong, — as you can clearly see..(^_^)….


      3. In my experience, diesel is hands down the best engine choice in a truck for service, durability, torque, and longevity. Unfortunately, they have a high initial cost factor and somewhat pricier for a gallon vs. gasoline. Maintenance can get costly and all the environmental controls can be a headache. It’s too bad the diesel can’t be had in a less expensive package. So, I think that if any automaker can offer a low cost diesel without all of the other uneeded frills (like the xl package), they will sell like hotcakes.

          1. Some think gas turbos are actually superior to diesels, but look no further than the trucking industry. Why not have a 15-liter gasoline turbo engine? According to some on this board, it’d have better power and fuel efficiency!

        1. EPA mandates are what makes the diesel option so expensive. If you could take away the DPF, SCR, and EGR…plus all the sensors that are complimentary to those systems…you’d have the option at half the price it is now.

    11. Love the options from Ford. Keep pushing competition. We the consumers win. Hasn’t been mentioned yet but this engine could be nicely paired with the expedition/navigator…any thoughts?

    12. I like the idea of a more fuel efficient half ton. I don’t care about how quick it goes personally. As long as it moves a load well. Is reliable. Decent on fuel. What makes me interested is it should be easier to drive around with big tires. Less taxing and better on fuel than a gasser. Ive always wished I had a diesel when I had a set of 35’s on a 5.0 f150. It was ok but you could tell that their was no low end torque to easily move you. Had to get rpm’s up. Dig deeper into the throttle than I liked. Diesel should solve that and be a little more relaxed with big tires. I’d like to get behind the wheel of either of ghe 3.0 diesel’s. 10 spd should be something. I was impressed with the jump from 4 to 6 gears so 4 more outta be effortless.

      1. Yes but please do the math. I know people really love to see a nice fat MPG value on the dash but sometimes the fuel prices offset that. I havent found enough justification on “efficiency” to switch to a diesel.

    13. We will have to see how it works in the real world but other than MPG, I think the current Ecoboost engines will be better performance wise. I like the idea of a CGI block. The twin turbos is a cool idea and likely will give this small diesel superior drivability. The broad torque range is also good. I don’t like the idea of a timing belt. Not sure why Ford opted for this route. GM did with their 2.8L so maybe there is something new about these belts we don’t know. Was also hoping for an exhaust brake but again, we will see how it does in the real world.

        1. On my mind that is still to long of an interval. Manufacturers (all) push maintenance requirements as far as possible to tell consumers low maintenance. So unless there is overwhelming evidence of 150k, I still like 100k

          1. jimmyjohns, I think you said before you have a small business. Workhorse is a real option and they sell even to the residential owner now. The W15 will be less than 45,000 to own with 75mpge available if you stay within 80 miles or 32mpg after that and not range limited. With AWD and a better payload and it has the best performance. Anything with performance eats fuel but not the W15.

            1. Actually I manage a smaller fleet of specialty vehicles. About $16 million. Just about everything is diesel. Powerstrokes, International DT466’s and Cummins 6.7L. In our business we do put on a lot of miles but idle time is even more. We are also around 18,000lbs. While I am not against electric because my next car for the wife maybe electric in some form, I’m not sure we can use it in our business model. For one thing our trucks require a lot of electricity. I have 320 amp alternators to power up our systems. I am wanting to go gasoline though. I think it will be much cheaper to maintain and more likely have a higher level of reliability. We have a lot of engine hours compared to miles.

              However as technology advances, maybe something could work out for electric but I don’t see a way around it right now. Especially since we need to generate so much of it now.

            2. jimmyjohns, just contact Workhorse, they specialize in what you do to lower your fleet costs. If they don’t make sense to you then don’t do it. I think you can cut your fleet expenses in half given what I see from Workhorse. I imagine they would love to talk with you and you would have some good feedback from it and be in the know should new tech arrive. Especially idling costs would go down big time.

            3. I looked at your link and really nothing would work. The N15 is close but GVW needs to be 23,000lbs, range is to low and other things too. But if they get going, I think they could be there in a few years.

      1. Ford has a timing belt because this engine was developed some time ago for use in Land Rover products. Ford was not going to re-engineer the entire engine for something expected to get 5% of sales.

      2. Timing belts are superior to to timing chains in my opinion and here’s why.

        Yes, they need to be change at say 100,000 miles intervals, but once changed you have basically a tight, freshly timed engine. They also eliminate many oil leak points because there is no front case with chains and oil in it, just a removable simple belt cover.

        They also generally run with less noise than chains while running and no startup rattles when waiting for oil pressure to move the chain tensioners.

        Another benefit is the engine usually is kept in better maintenance with fresh water pumps, hoses, and drive belts when the timing belt is changed.

        If you go back in time and think of some of the longest lasting, most trouble free powertrains from the past, they’ve had timing belts. Honda 4cyl, Toyota 3.4v6 Toyota 4.7v8, Nissan 3.0v6 and many more.

        All of those above examples were long lasting trouble free engines with timing belts.
        Hell I’ve seen Toyota guys be super lazy and push the belt change interval to over 200k but of course when it breaks its a bad engine design right?

        I think in today’s modern engines were seeing much higher failure rates on timing chains.

        We are also seeing new 2nd gen single designed chains for less stretch and better durability like Ford did on the 2nd gen 3.5tt.

        I think this will be another great engine option for Ford’s F150 especially for the customer looking for a Diesel powertrain and maximum mpg.

        I think the 2.7tt, 5.0, and 3.5tt will all pull better up a steep grade with say 9000lbs.

        I also think the biggest issues with the diesels are costs and emissions reliability!

        1. Another reason Honda stayed with timing belt is for more accurate timing at higher rpms.

          I did the timing belt on my four-cylinder Accord at 120k. Actually, I was short on time and tools at the time, so had a reputable shop do it for $400, including accessories, water pump, fan belt, etc.

          The V6 belt changes go for $600-$800, plus another couple hundred for the full meal deal.

          Yes, with the timing belt change, you are getting a refreshed engine. With a timing chain, the chain can stretch over time, throwing off your timing and causing performance degrades that you may never notice. And that chain will have to be changed eventually, also.

        2. @Drifter64, I generally agree with your comments on belts vs chains. Volvo 240 vehicles (which also had a reputation for going hundreds of thousands of miles) also used belts. This was a non-interference designed engine, so when the belt broke…no problem. You could change the belt on the side of the highway in 45 minutes with basic tools. Just re-align the timing marks and make sure you had #1 at TDC.

          The biggest downside to modern timing belts is the cost, which causes some people to put off maintenance, which can cause engine destruction. For example, changing the timing belt on our 1999 Audi A8 4.2L quattro was well over $2000. It was very labor intensive. Yes, that included a new water pump and tensioner pulley as well.

          Some timing chains will last a lifetime and never cause any problems. Think about a simple GM pushrod V8. It has a very short distance between the crankshaft and single camshaft. A short, simple chain which will last probably forever.

          In many cases, vehicles with timing chains have stand-alone water pumps which can be replaced separately when required. There are also no internal tensioner pulleys that need replacing, but occasionally the timing chain tensioner guide slippers need replacing.

          I would say there are pros and cons to each setup. Believe me, if a plastic timing chain guide wears through or a hydraulic tensioner fails, the chain will either self-destruct or skip a tooth. Either can result in engine failure. Twin-cam Harley Davidsons had a very common problem with timing chain slipper guide failure at low mileages; it is not unheard of on vehicles, either. Our 2002 VW EuroVan sounded like a bucket of marbles because of worn timing chain guides at 130k miles.

          Because the rubber belt it lighter, the engine will actually rev faster and have less parasitic power loss, and may achieve better mpg. While *I* don’t prefer it, I can understand why.

          1. I too think there are good arguments with either case. Since this is on a rear drive truck, I can’t see why a belt replacement would be over $1000.00. A cummins 6.7L needs the valves adjusted at 150,000 mikes or 5000 hrs. So no matter what, a Diesel will cost you money in maintenance.

            1. Our old 1999 Audi A8 had a north-south longitudinal engine as well, and like I said…well over $2k.

              The biggest thing is when a vehicle reaches 100,000 miles or more, even a thousand dollar repair can seem like a lot in relation to the book value of the vehicle. Trucks hold their value better, so that will help…

            2. The belt in my 2.8L Liberty CRD was around $500 in parts alone including the WP. I did mine myself so that was it, but You really need to remove the radiator and intercooler to get to the front of the motor so from a labor standpoint, it’s intensive. I have seen quotes other people have gotten in the $1500-2000 range.

          2. What causes the timing chain issues is the double overhead cam design.

            On pushrod engines, chains will alway be very simple, short and reliable!

            Double overhead cam chains are very long and complicated with variable valve timing these days.

            The smart engine designs are designing two chains, one for each bank to eliminate stretching and increase durability!

            It’s obviously more complicated than a single serpentine timing belt.

            By the way, how often does a serpentine belt fail these days??? This is outside of a covered area, exposed to much more than an enclosed timing belt.

            1. Another great design is Inline 6. One chain , one long , low pressure hydraulic tensioner.
              I wish FCA brings this engine for real soon.

            2. Variable valve timing does not add to belt or chain complexity. Those units are contained within or behind the pulley for the belts anyway.

            3. @Zviera:
              Why not just use gear drive, like the Cummins 6.7L, Ford 6.7L, and GM 6.6L? Then you never need a tensioner, and never, ever have a problem.

    14. looks like the land rover diesel uses a belt too, while fords new 2.0 ecoblue diesel uses a oil bath belt too. maybe it is only a single turbo and the far side exhaust is plumbed to the side we can see.

      1. I am disappointed,that ford didn’t bring V6 diesel based on ecoblue design. That would be step ahead of ecodiesel. This engine is old and not robust.
        They didn’t put any effort to bring this diesel to the market. They just want to have a presence in the niche market and make lot of money on diesel suckers upfront and on service as well.

    15. Payload – I am curious what typical payload numbers will be. TFL, please post what the door sticker says for payload when you get a test truck. In fact, please dobthis for ALL of your test trucks. We want to know what typical payload is for a typical truck package, not a base 2wd that no one will buy.

      Stop/Start – This seems a little much for a diesel, seems like it would be awful hard on the starter. I guess you do what you need to do to make that 30mpg claim.

      Brakes – I do t think J2807 standards spell out very much for braking ability, especially repeated braking on a mountain grade. In this case, we are using trans programming logic (which many don’t trust) and the typical brakes.

      To make braking safer while towing heavier loads, mfrs resort to larger brakes. This is all well and good, but the tradeoff is that you need larger wheels to encompass those larger brakes. This is why we have 18″ wheels on trucks now, large wheel/tire packages. They may look cool, but it adds a few more inches to the bed height. Twenty years ago you could easily reach over the side of the bed to get something in the bed. Of course, those trucks didnt have the payload and towing capacity if modern tall trucks. The shame of it is that there is no modern alternative for full-size trucks.

      1. Stop/Start will be fine for this starter. It’s only a 3.0L V6 engine. Perhaps they gave it the same starter from the Super Duty 6.2L gas V8? I’m sure its up to the task.

        1. That’s not bad, but if we are only talking lariat and up trim levels, I bet we will see payloads 1450 lbs and less. The 2015+ Lariat supercrews I have looked at are all between 1500-1600 lbs payload.

    16. People will buy it.
      Lots of great options from ford. Na v6, 2.7 eco, 5.0 for the v8 crowd, and the unmatched in the 1/2 ton segment 3.5. Add a diesel to the line up now… next year a hybrid????? Wow. Good job ford!

    17. Just ran some quick/dirty numbers using the current fuel prices in my area.. $2.53 regular / 2.99 diesel, assuming 28 mpg for the diesel and 20 mpg for the 3.5L. At $2,400 more than the 3.5L Ecoboost it will take roughly 122k miles to pay off the initial cost of the diesel. Not really a terrible break-even point for those that are like me and could use this primarily as a commuter with the occasional weekend tow up north. I put 90,000 miles on my current car in 5 years.

      The MPG numbers are the rough part of this. My father in laws 3.5L 4×4 6.5 bed with tow pkg rarely gets above 19 while cruising on the highway unloaded at 70mph.

      1. If you tow all the time those numbers will look better for a diesel. However, you have to include def fluid per mile in those calculations and more expensive oil changes and more expensive maintenance. Another kicker from what I am hearing is that it has a timing belt. Will this require a change at 150K and how much will that be. The GM baby max requires this at 150K miles.

        1. And just because the recommended change is at 150,000 miles. That does not mean that some won’t fail at 120,000 or 90,000 or even less. These new diesels with timing belts are definitely a step back in build quality and reliability.

        2. DEF is $2.75 per gallon at the pump. Car&Driver did a long-term test of a 5500lb Range Rover with this same engine. *Average* (not highway) fuel economy was 26mpg over 40,000 miles. DEF consumption was 23.2 gallons (64 dollars Rambro!) over the same mileage. Car & Driver really liked the engine, said it had plenty of passing power and was smooth and quiet. The engine takes 8 quarts of oil – basically identical amount to a 5.0L V8 Ford F-150. Oil changes are more expensive on the large pickup diesels which hold much more (13 quarts for Ford) and have larger oil filters.

          If this engine can be viewed favorably in a $100,000 Range Rover, wouldn’t it be suitable for a similar-weight Ford pickup?

          1. You are not being completely honest with Def pricing Troverman. It ranges considerable and should be added into the overall average price. Def prices can be 12 dollars per gallon and beyond depending how knowledgeable the end user is. This is a 276 dollar bill plus the def fluid has to be drained and refilled every 4000- 10,000 miles which is another hidden cost. Typical maintenance bills for a diesel are much higher as well. Re-sale may save the user some of these losses. I will definitely pass however. As a business owner it may help that the diesel saves fuel mostly when towing and their drivers wont be able to drive crazy and wreck tires and brakes which may be a benefit that the motor is slow, but yet capable from a commercial standpoint. Ford will not make 5% sales when the market only supports 3% in my opinion. This will be a flop unless they can sell it commercially and many commercial outfits are not onboarding with diesel these days. More commercial owners are moving to electric such as Workhorse with superior power and better MPG. The W15 destroys this F150 in every way. 32MPG on the generator and 75Mpge on battery with superior torque and HP at just above 0 RPM. And Workhorse is proving to be the cheaper truck to own based on annual studies. Depending on mileage they usually win out.

            Here is a link to def pricing that does not fall in line to your proclaimed 2.75/gallon


            1. Rambro, DEF prices can vary alot. At the pump prices would be the best case scenario, and most of the time DEF at the pump is only available at truck stops. But it is where I buy mine, so I think it is reasonable.

              Nevertheless, Wal-Mart is pretty handy for most people…and they sell DEF in the standard 2.5 gallon containers (same as you would get from the dealer) for $7.88 (or $3.15 per gallon). $12 per gallon would be a stupid consumer, indeed. Here’s the Wal-Mart link:

              DEF is DEF, too. Brand is not important. It simply is 67.5% deionized water and 32.5% urea (a form of ammonia). One brand will not have a “better” formulation than another.

              DEF fluid *never* has to be drained unless there is some failure of the pump or heaters in the tank. There is no normal maintenance schedule for *draining* DEF. You simply use it up as you go, and refill as necessary. This engine in the Range Rover was using a gallon every 1724 miles. If you tow a lot, you will see more DEF usage. But there is a nice on-board gauge and a lot of warning when you start to get low.

              Bottom line: it will cost $184 for DEF at WalMart pricing in 100,000 miles of driving. Actually, a little less because when you buy a new diesel, the DEF tank is full. So the first 8600 miles of this engine are “free.”

            2. @Rambro, I will also add this, since you always steer the topic to electric. The W15 truck is not in production…might be by the end of this year. It can only go 80 miles on battery, than needs 6 hours at 240V to recharge fully. The range extender can provide an additional 310 miles. The truck has two 230HP motors, but when running on the range-extending engine alone it cannot produce full horsepower. The truck is also limited to 80mph, and while payload is *competitive* at 2200lbs, towing is weak at 5,000lbs. And I guarantee battery range is going to be very poor when towing or hauling heavy, or in very cold or extremely hot weather. The final problem is cartoonish styling and a PlaySkool plastic interior. It really pales in comparison to the handsome interior and exterior styling of today’s typical pickups.

              I agree this truck may be cheaper to operate for some companies or people, but not for most. It is a niche-market product and will sell less by far than a diesel half-ton, even by the company’s own projections.

            3. Troverman, I just got an e-mail from Workhorse, the irony. It is expected to start at 52,500 with a tax rebate bring it to $45,000 plus state rebates plus better fuel economy. You are wrong on the power. The generator will continue to top up the batteries in my opinion well before it reaches the 80 mile limit. It is perfect for commercial use and will steel a lot of commercial F150 sales.

              Also the F150 payload of 2000Lbs will be much less in a 4×4 version in a Lariat trim. Workhorse can be loaded to 2200Lb payload with True AWD. This means if you have a 1700Lb payload you can still tow 5000Lbs with a 10% tongue weight. Your 4×4 Lariat might be left towing nothing or a fraction of that and fleet owners may need that payload. Even the best 2wd XL f150 (lightest possible will only be allowed to tow 3000Lbs and the Workhorse can take 5000Lbs in tow with a 1700Lb load. And do it for cheaper in upfront costs and get better mpg

            4. @Rambro,

              It will not have “true” AWD. It has two electric motors, but still needs a differential at the front and rear axles or else it would not be able to turn. Unless it has front and rear lockers, it won’t be any different than any other 4×4 pickup with part-time 4×4, except that it can infinitely vary how much power is sent to the rear wheels vs front wheels.

              The 2018 F-150 with the 5.0L V8 has a max payload of 3270lbs. It is rated to tow 11,600lbs, and that is in Crew Cab, 4×4, long-bed configuration. The same truck equipped with the 3.5L EcoBoost is rated to tow an even 13,000lbs (the 4×2 version tows 13,200lbs). Granted, payload drops in these crew cab, long bed configs, but those are the ratings. It seems the Workhorse allegedly has more payload capacity but less towing capacity due to the inferior powertrain.

              The Workhorse has an entirely plastic body and bed, reinforced in some areas with carbon fiber. It comes only in extended cab form for the initial release. The motor / generator cannot turn on until the battery is depleted. Here is the article from Motor Trend where I’m getting my info:

            5. Troverman the article states the plastic will be stronger than steel and lighter than aluminum with carbon fiber in some areas from what I read. They also stated the model in production will have a switch allowing you to turn the generator on whenever you want to. Not sure how much power is lost when it runs just on a generator or maybe you have to stop to keep it from deleting all battery power. The generator is 38HP which will be enough to maintain charge when under light travelling and idling in town. On the highway you don’t need a lot of power to maintain speed and it will gain charge on the downgrades. Either way it will be a strong competitor to the Ford fleet sales and a few residential buyers as well and for those individuals it looks like a cheaper option with the best performance in a truck currently offered.

            6. It all depends on expected usage. It would be a good powertrain for parcel delivery services. Lots of stops and idle time, lots of brake applications to regain power, and the 38 hp range extender could get a truck back home through city streets.

              For a highway truck or tow vehicle, it’s terrible. 80 mile empty range is 30-40 miles at max tow, and 38 hp is useless trying to pull 5,000 lbs.

              It has it’s applications and some tremendous advantages in those applications. It has it’s disadvantages and they are insurmountable for 80% of scenarios where you would normally want a truck.

            1. How much do you know about Range Rover engines?
              First generation and second generation (this encompassed 1970-2002) used essentially small, aluminum-blocked, GM pushrod V8’s. Rover made very few modifications. Over time, the engines grew in displacement from the original 3.5L V8 up to 4.6L V8’s. These engines were mostly gutless, very smooth, and completely reliable unless you had a headgasket failure or slipped cylinder liner. Those two problems were major, but not all engines had the problems (later years were better, for the most part), and you could easily get 200k out of this engine. I had 4 Range Rovers and one Discovery II with these motors. Nice as easy to work on.
              For three model years, the 3rd-gen Range Rover used a 4.4L DOHC BMW V8. Great engine, but could have problems with the variable valve timing unit (VANOS) which could end up costing major dollars to fix. Starting in 2006 and to current, Range Rovers are using Jaguar V8s…and now very late models offer Jaguar V6’s, and of course this particular diesel engine. The Jaguar V8 engines are quite reliable.

              Not many changes have been made to this engine for use in the truck at all. Different crank bearings, different connecting rods, etc. The pickup version makes slightly less power and torque than the Range Rover version. Land Rover tests all their engines for good performance in extreme temps as well.

        3. Rambro,
          How can you just be hearing that it will have a timing belt vs chains?

          Anyone that knows engines can clearly see a timing belt in the engine pictures given above!

          Belts are better, more accurate, and less complex on double overhead cam engines.

          Eventually all timing chains stretch and need replacing anyways.

        1. break-even would be right around 50k miles assuming $3.13/gal for premium. Easy way to compute.. take a generic mile amount (10,000 miles) and divide by mpg (28 for diesel) and then multiply by the fuel cost (2.99/gal) which will equal the fuel cost for that amount of miles ($1,067.86). plug an play your local fuel costs and you’re all set. Should mention, like Rambro pointed out, diesel will also require DEF and more expensive oil changes. If you’re like me and do your own oil there will be some cost savings there.

          1. Heath, there might be a traditional higher resale with the diesel engine so the full cost might not be there which shortens the payback time but I think consumers are scared of old diesels now. I don’t think they will hold a high resale unless in an HD truck and with Workhorse, Tesla and Bollinger and other electric vehicles on the rise fuel prices might drop and resale might plummet. Very tricky times right now to buy into something for the long term. I would not bet on diesel, but that’s just my opinion but an educated one. Looking at real cars like the Tesla Model X and low cost Model 3, these vehicles blow away the competition and it seems every manufacturer admits electric is the future. Depending on how fast that ramps up combustion motors will turn into door stops and be worthless in likely 10 years time.

            1. And this my opinion rambro we have a poor electric grid and we loosing power plants which all this does is drive up electricity cost. Then you add more demand for charging your vehicle which will drive up cost for electricity. Same principal as fuel only thing fuel cost is established because everything is in place.

            2. Marc Hartman, take a look at this video and how little space in the world is required for solar power to power the entire US grid. Most EV cars can be charged through solar grids. Fuel is not a fixed price and if it was not for Tesla you guys in the US would be paying 5 dollars a gallon right now. It is the EV scare that keeps fuel prices down. Take a look at this video on solar. It is a lot easier to install mega batteries and solar than it is to deliver fuel and store it.


            3. Can you say with almost certainty that the sun will be out 100% of the time? With out looking at that utube link. Solar panels are a falsely. They are not established and it will take more to build solar power grid to replace a power plant. That is fact. Right now all these green people and animal rights actives don’t like them.

              I have not red anywhere that Tesla or any other electric vehicle company has made an effort to make more electricity. Charging 1 car is like adding another house on a block for energy consumption. How do you know solar panels is going make up that loss? If so can you say it will sunny all time? To 1st question of this comment.

              Electric cars have nothing to do with price of gas at the pump, because they make up less than 1% of the cars being built in the usa. Another false you are telling us.

              When you run off the rails with electric vehicles in your comments I just skip over the rest of it because I have know interest in. And reading most of the responses to your electric vehicle rant most feel the same way.

            4. Marc, take a look at the video and learn something. Almost every manufacturer agrees that EV cars are the future. To say it is a rant is rather ignorant.

              1% of EV cars do not lower fuel prices because of lack of consumption of fuel. They lower the price of fuel because they scare the auto industry and the fuel companies. The fuel companies want manufacturers to sell more combustion engines and to do this they need to make the combustion engine sell better than an EV car. They need to make it appear to be better and cheaper to drive a combustion engine in hopes that electric cars do not take off. But we know its too late for the fuel industry as experts say EV cars will be so cheap to drive that fuel can’t get any cheaper without losing profits so that is why fuel prices are as low as possible. Without the scare of EV domination fuel prices would skyrocket out of control.

            5. ….And Marc, no it does not have to be sunny all the time in order for solar to work. Experts account for an average amount of sunlight. This can be stored in mega batteries like what Elon did in Australia for their power grid but on a smaller scale per solar station for EV cars.

            6. One EV per household could work, but what if you have 3, 4, or more vehicles on the home. What do you do? ICE isn’t going anywhere, ever

            7. For many houses and apartments Elon has suggested mega batteries to store power in the future and can easily be added to new houses with solar. If the grid can’t handle additions than how to we keep developing new neighborhoods and mass apartment complexes. How does the grid support that? Eolon has a viable answer. Large mega batteries used as storage cells so you never run the risk of power outages. Mega batteries can be charged with the grid in off peak hours or charged with solar and this in turn feeds the house during heavy use. Elon already has proof of concept in Australia and is being praised worldwide for it.

            8. “Real Cars” like the Tesla Model X? Tesla’s appeal to a very limited group of people, Rambro. The Model X is ugly, the Model S is not. They are “fast” for sure, but have very austere and in my opinion ugly interiors. Something that runs on a battery simply does not seem to have the longevity of something that has a real engine.
              Diesel engines are better than ever, I have no idea why you hate them. They are squeaky clean at this point, releasing almost zero emissions, and lower greenhouse gas output than a gas vehicle of the same displacement. They are quiet, do not smoke or smell, and have excellent power and driveability characteristics. If I’m driving to a remote area, I can put my transfer tank in the bed of my diesel and bring along an extra 100 gallons in addition to the 48 gallons the factory fuel tank holds. Even if I only get 10 mpg, that’s basically *1500* miles of range. That’s insurance if I slide off the road on a frigid night in a remote area…I can run the engine all night and stay warm. Will a battery be able to run a heater all night long if a Model X slides off the road in sub-zero conditions? It might not. If it does, when someone tows you out the next day, the car won’t have any power left to move, and there surely wouldn’t be a charging station in a 200 mile radius.
              Manufacturers are promoting and producing electrics because their hand was forced under oppressive Obama-era politics. Even though things have relaxed a bit now, they still have the investment and will continue to promote, to try to get a return on that major investment. This DOES NOT MEAN electrics are the best way forward, it just means manufacturers have money invested and want a return.
              I think in the end, if the customer can make a choice between two similar vehicles…traditional fossil-fuel powered or battery powered…with similar capabilities at a similar price…the customer will always choose the fossil-fuel powered vehicle. If governments don’t play fair and make it too expensive NOT to buy electric, than most of the buying public will further give up their freedoms and soon we’ll all be doomed to just get in some electric pod…push a button…and arrive at a destination no different than riding an elevator.

            9. Troverman you need a serious education or you are a lobbyest for the fuel industry and I get it. Many people will disagree regardless and you will blame whatever you can to compensate for the laziness of the current auto industry that would have continued to build prehistoric junk for infinity if it were not for pioneers like Nikola Tesla and Elon. Arnold Schwarzenegger has joined the EV game as well. He was so fed up with the garbage he paid Mercedes to build him an electric G-Wagon. The people by the masses lined up to buy Teslas share the same passion. Tesla is almost worth more than GM and Ford right now. Next year they will surpass them. Seriously get your head out of the gutter.

      2. Heath another calculation here is diesel quality. A lot of diesel now is only 103% energy efficient over gas. Regular diesel is 113% energy efficient over gas but not after it goes through the filtering on the new style diesel. But my point is you won’t be getting 28mpg with the diesel motor as the grade of diesel varies now and I hear is different for winter vs summer. All of this will affect the diesel mpg. Ford is likely giving you the best number based on the best diesel and the lightest F150. The residential owner wont see an XL version, only a Lariat. I don’t see a luxury aspect in owning a diesel, its added work.

        1. Good point on winter diesel fuel, the MPG will drop 1 MPG, maybe 2. Note, gasoline numbers are all derived using 100% gasoline with 0% Ethanol. So…you will never see the gas numbers reported either. And many of the reported towing limits for trucks assume you will use premium gas fuel and summer diesel blends. It can be really complicated to calculate MPG. Go to Fuely.com, as those are real-life numbers.

          1. Aaron, even premium has ethanol in some areas now. Ford does list if 87 or 91 was used in many cases. TFL is starting to tell us but they never mention what was in the tank prior so we still don’t see the difference without large error in the data.

            I don’t trust fuelly either especially with Turbo power. Depending how you drive a turbo motor can eat a lot of fuel and brake pads or save a lot of fuel.

          2. 10% Ethanol only contributes to a 3% loss in energy content. That is .6mpg at 20mpg. That is assuming that the added benefits of the ethanol(cooling the cylinder and air charge) dont counteract that to allow more aggressive spark timing and injection timing.

        2. I like the thought of a diesel but it would have to prove practical for me before I would buy one. We have all been conditioned to believe that they magically last forever but we often forget the added expenses for routine maintenance. And, when diesels break down, get the checkbook out because it’s going to cost you. Generations of my family have been in the trucking business and I have been around diesels my whole life. What was telling to me was the personal vehicles my great grandfather, grandfather, and father drove. They drove gassers for their company and personal trucks. Not that they were the smartest guys in the world but they were pretty good businessmen and they never found value in diesels as their daily drivers. Then again, that was some time ago and maybe things have changed. Contrast that with my best friend’s dad who owned a large business and only drove those tiny VW diesels as a DD and diesel Mercedes Benz for family cars. To each his own I guess. For me, until someone can show me that the diesel will have a substantial benefit and or advantage for my use and save me money, I will stick to a gasser. Heck, I’d almost like to see a break even point. Best to all and stay warm in this cold weather.

          1. Check out my Workhorse e-mail Moondog. Everyone thought this would be a 100,000 dollar truck and it costs less than the F150 Diesel, less than 45,000 after rebates and it actually sells the best performance in the business with the best mpg, usually the two never go together.

            Their torque numbers will be released soon I was told.

            1. Rambro, usually performance and hybrids don’t go together?

              Uh. well have you been for many years. Many hybrids have more power and better mileage.

              It has been several years that the fastest race cars and hypercars are all hybrids.

              Wow. not even Rambro has been paying close attention to electric engineering.

            2. Sorry Hal (Jay, whatever) but the million dollar Porsche 918 Spider Hybrid got it’s butt handed to it by the $130,000 rip snorting fire breathing V10 Viper.

              There’s Formula E that is fast but look at the length of the races! 😀

        3. I 100% agree with your statements. I was merely providing a quick reference so people could see a rough break even point and know that it will likely be a higher amount of miles based on real-world variables. Who knows, maybe in 2 years diesel is less expensive than regular. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it around here but could happen.

    18. I like driving a pickup truck, even just to commute in. You sit up, the vehicle is very roomy inside, it is safe, handles fairly well, rides fairly well, has more 4×4 capability than most other vehicles, and has the options for hauling things in the bed or towing behind the truck. Trucks also look great and have good power. So for me, a nice pickup that can get 30mpg would be a great commuter that has the added capabilities I mentioned above. I think 5% of sales is very reasonable.

    19. powerstroke, silverado, and titan diesel would be an interesting shootout all with same weight (10k?).

      the interesting part will be the 10 speed will utilize more gears in the diesel due to ~1/2 the rpm range. whereas the titan with its < 3:1 rear end probably maxed out in 3rd gear on the ike. 10 speed will have short drops in wheel torque between gears rather than huge cliffs.

      3.55 rear, 32" diameter, max rpm 3250

    20. Troverman I am curious as to why your fuel heater did not work well.I am under the impression that this system when the key is turn to just the On position it’s starts the fuel heater to warm the fuel filter canisters.

      1. @Bravo1: The diesel Super Duty has a fuel cooler / heater but the primary function is a fuel cooler. It is a simple inline heat exchanger which runs coolant from the low temp secondary cooling system through a series of tubes in a housing. Diesel fuel coming from the return line flows around the cooling tube bundle. In the winter, the cooler will function as a heater if the fuel temp is lower than the coolant temp, which it likely will be. BUT…keep in mind the fuel heater is not electric, it requires warm coolant to work. The secondary cooling system has a warm and cold side, even though it runs entirely cooler than the primary cooling system. The coolant temp from a fully warmed up engine going through the cooler/heater would be 113F. When the temp is -20F or greater, the secondary cooling system is lucky to reach 50F. So the fuel freezes (gels) in the filters when the truck isn’t running, and you have a problem right off when you start the truck.

        The only electric heat systems you have are the engine block heater (110V shore power) which heats some of the coolant in the engine block water jackets, but nothing of the secondary coolant system; the engine glow plugs which heat the cylinders prior to engine cranking and even during initial warmup; the DEF tank / pump / lines heater which unfreezes frozen DEF (freezes at +12F); and finally the supplemental cabin heater which uses 150A of power to help electrically supply heat to the cab since a diesel engine takes so long to warm up.

      2. I was under the impression there were no duel heaters on the 6.7. May be wrong here but even if there is one in the FCM ther is not one in the tank or lines. The unused fuel pumped is heated by the engine and then returned to the tank.

    21. Contrary to what the article states, there is no long bed available with the diesel.

      Per Ford’s press release:

      “The all-new 3.0-liter Power Stroke is available for both 4×2 and 4×4 F-150 pickups. Retail customers can choose this engine option for 2018 F-150 Lariat, King Ranch and Platinum edition SuperCrew trucks with either a 5.5-foot or 6.5-foot bed configuration, and SuperCab trucks with a 6.5-foot bed configuration.

      For fleet customers who use their truck for work, the 3.0-liter Power Stroke diesel engine will be available on all F-150 trim levels with SuperCrew 5.5-foot or 6.5-foot bed configurations and SuperCab trucks with a 6.5 foot bed.”

      Also, Ford has elected not to make the 35 gallon fuel tank available with the diesel because they wanted the DEF tank next to the fuel tank, I presume.

    22. Tongue vs HP

      HP was really a advertising gimmick to sell steam engines.

      You can not measure HP.
      HP is just math. Basically you can not have HP without RPM.

      You can measure tongue. And it can be measured at zero RPM.

      If you have near constant torgue HP builds as rpm goes up. And hp can build even as torgue drops a bit.

      A great deal of the argument about HP vs torgue has more to do with engine design.

      In general a long stroke engine is going to produce more torgue than a short stroke.
      But the long stroke will not be able to rev as fast or as high as a short stroke.

      1. Yes but HP is analogous to torque to the wheel. An engine with more HP produces more torque to the wheel. So whether or not is an actual measurable value, it tells you what one motor can do vs another a lot better than some random torque value can. Sure, if two motors produce different levels of torque at the same RPM then you know which one can do more. But given two motors that have a broad RPM range, it becomes more difficult to compare one that produces 500 ft-lbs at 2000 rpm to one that produces 200 ft lbs at 5000 rpm. I usually dont bring my calculator to the car dealer.

        These cars are also systems. You have gear reduction, torque converters etc etc. HP helps us account for that. My 500hp @ 2000 rpm motor can make the same torque to the wheel as your 500hp @ 10000 RPM motor assuming the optimal gearing is available for both, which is likely is with these modern transmissions. 20 years ago when we had 4 speeds I would agree, low RPM torque was king.

          1. The same thing happens to timing chains. Except chains/guides don’t typically have a set replacement interval. So when they fail prematurely, you also have a huge bill.

    23. I have worked for honda/acura for almost 16 yrs and have never seen a 2000 and newer timing belt break… we have customers go to 150-200k and don’t change them. they are recommended 10yrs/120k…Now the chains in the 2.4l 4 cly are not as good… they streach, jump time and the guides wear out and break.
      If you dont change your oil on time it will sretch much faster also. I will take a belt any-day over a chain.

      1. I wouldn’t mind to drive timing belt vehicle in mild weather, like Florida, but timing belt suffers greatly in very cold temperatures and can break prematurely.

      2. Great info Skeeter!

        I think most of these guys get a myth stuck in their heads from 30yrs ago and never let go of it?

        The rare occasion of a timing belt breaking unfortunately always get blaimed on that engine design instead of the idiots that never serviced them!

    24. I’ve had a ram 3.0 nearly three years,47k miles.Overall I’m happy with the truck but I beginning to side with the people who say the turbo-gas engines are a better option. The 3.0 ram base engine is great little engine but with all the epa requirements ,the emissions added on to the engine can be a nightmare.I love the feel of torque in this little engine,for a few blocks distance it feels like a big block V8 from yester year. I’ve had no problems but know several who have had big problems with the emission system,which only have a 36,000 mile warranty.I paid 34,500 for my ram HFE model out the door.The F=150 will be closer to 50k.The ram diesel can be bought in the cheapest truck ram sells.I don’t see how 5% of sales will benfit Ford very much.I’m not a Ford person but I would buy the 3.5 ecoboost,in my opinion way more for the money.

      1. Very fair and honest analogy Windell.

        Diesels just don’t play out to make as much sense these days with all of the complex and overly restrictive emissions crap!

        I think the only reasons you’re seeing a Diesel is for competitive bragging rights and out of Country markets.

        Large fleet and commercial customers are also realizing that diesel is an untenable payback vs expense unless it’s over the road trucking.

        Ford also recognizes this and is in development of a future new big displacement gas V8 for their HD trucks and commercial customers.

        1. Hopefully FCA has a gasoline Turbocharged inline 6cyl 4.5L in hiding???

          Inline sixes rule with Turbocharging, Direct Injection, and combined with port injection this engine would rule and make the best currently drule!

          1. I would like to see a 3.7L inline 6 w/ turbo. Why 3.7? It is 225c.i.! RAM could sell a lot of those based on legendary durability alone.

            The turbo would sit in the space formerly occupied by the carb and air cleaner, so no bigger package than the old Slant Six.

    25. I think Ford is missing a segment of the market by not offering this in the base XL and XLT, Ram 1500 will beat them since they offer the ecodiesel in cheaper packages. I know the fleet vehicles are getting it, but Ram offers the ecodiesel in all varients.

        1. I agree I see a ton of f250 xlt 6.7 liter diesels. The jeep grand Cherokee diesel did the same thing and only offered the engine in the top packages and in my opinion that is why they struggled to sell them.

          1. I don’t understand why manufacturers limit engine choices to trim levels. Same as the GM 6.2L. Some people want a certain engine but don’t want all the toys that goes with that package. The only thing I can think of is it keeps the engine choice high in residual value.

            1. Yeah I’m really surprised Ford is limiting the engine to certain trims. Especially when they offer the 3.5 twin turbo in all trims.

    26. Troverman So If the fuel filters are frozen and you have above 20 degree diesel fuel,how do you get the power stroke to start.What happens when you tried to start it. Did it start.

      1. I don’t think his filters froze. The fuel likely gelled and the filters are now plugged with wax. So the best thing is to bring it in someplace warm and thaw it out add additive and change the filters. 2nd choice is power service 911. Get it running and change the filters. I have had several trucks quit while driving with low fuel pressure codes. Just bad diesel fuel.

          1. I will have to look into that because Cummins endorses the use of power service products. The only additive I know that uses alcohol is seafoam. And that stuff will kill a fuel system.

      1. Too wide with twin turbo’s and 90* V8!

        Not enough room for proper heat flow management with towing and warranty in consideration.

        You could do single V8 turbo like Fords V8 Diesels, but turbo lag and drivability would be present with a single turbo.

        Inline 6cyl gasoline turbo would be best. Exhaust and turbo on one side and intake on the other!

        Very simple and reliable with plenty of room for proper heat management.

        Look at a Cummins 6cyl compared to the cramped V8 Diesel engine compartments? Then imagine it without all the water cooled EGR emissions crap?

        This is how a gasoline turbocharged in-line 6cyl could look!

        1. They’re not a dream to work on even with the egr cooler removed. Personally I think its about as easy to remove a Powerstroke turbo as it is a 6.7 Cummins turbo. Duramax…..thats another story. You gain quite a bit of room on the stroker eith the egr cooler removed as well

    27. Well reading most of the blogs looking at what is being said that the dsl option is expensive and it is just about not worth it. Hmm I’ve been saying that all along. Idk if I’m really impressed with this dsl when you look at the numbers compared to the gas engines.

      If i would compare this engine to any of the 4 gas engines I’d say it would be closer to the 2.7.

      Knight night nite you all.

    28. Can’t remember the year it happened.

      But when they went to low sulfur diesel the diesel engine became over priced except for those that tow constantly.

      Diesel fuel prices went up and mpg went down.

      Just like some people jump at the chance to get on a waiting list for a Dodge Demon. There are a lot of people who would by a new Diesel.

      Diesels have become either a tool or a toy. And it’s fine if you want one.

      But as us baby boomers get older. We really don’t need to cash out stocks to buy a 80 grand truck or write payment checks for the next 7 years.

      As a toy, even most retired people don’t spend enough time on the road to justify a 80 grand diesel truck.

      Not ridiculing any ones choice. Spend it if you got it.

      But I’ve just about ruled out a diesel in my future.

      1. I was lucky enough to own 2 Toyota diesels and one VW turbo diesel in golden diesel era in Europe aka 90’s. No emission bs what so ever.
        I consider myself a diesel sucker, but I have been cured since I moved to NA and since all that EPA crap installed and I am clear for 18 years and not going back. Just friking diesel filter is C$80 one customer complained in Auto Value I was getting antifreeze. I replaced a battery after 7 years of good service . I don’t want to pay for 2 of them for diesel.
        My heart wants to drive a diesel, but my brain is going to win this time.

      2. Lowering the sulfur in diesel fuel has little or nothing to do with the price of the fuel at the pump. That’s like saying a pair Nike basketball of sneakers is $200 because they put fifteen cents worth of extra packing in the box compared to last year. The price of diesel fuel costs slightly more per barrel to make due to the new refining process that brings sulfur down to 15 ppm; it also lowers lubricity, and has slightly less energy density, however, diesel fuel is a commodity, and the refiners are price takers; not price setters. When the price is high, which is driven solely by the commodities market, they make out like bandits, but retailers actually make less profit during high prices, because consumers price shop and that drives down their margin. When the price is low, the refiners may actually be losing money, but, but they still can’t affect the price that they get for the fuel. All they can do in that situation is choose not to refine it, but the producers and refiners get what they get and that’s determined by markets; not by production costs. When the prices are low, that’s when retailers make more, because people aren’t paying as much attention to the price, and they can raise it a few cents without losing business.

    29. Just wanted to share another tiny bit of info on Ford’s new F150 3.0 Diesel.

      It uses a mechanical clutch fan instead of the twin electric fans that all of Ford’s gasoline motors use except, the 6.2 in the Superduty’s.

      Twin electric fans are great for efficiency, but they are marginal towing maximum loads on super hot days! To my knowledge the only 1/2 tons still running mechanical clutch fans are Toyota and Ram with the 5.7 Hemi’s. Ecodiesel uses 1 large electric fan.

      Everyone else has long gone to Electric fans for their superior efficiency when not needed. However, they just can’t pull the same amount of air past the radiator when it is needed!

      This is a huge advantage/strength towing heavy on really hot days and a serious upgrade on a 1/2 ton. Ford sure seems to be doing this proper and making a serious tow platform out of this engine combo!

      1. Drifter,it is most likely an electromechanical fan instead of a straight up mechanical fan. I’m sure you know the difference since your in this side of things but those that don’t know. The fan clutch is controlled electronically instead of the old style that is engaged off of heat flowing into the clutch. Much more cooling control than a mechanical system and you can shut it down for efficiency. Just not as efficient as full electric fans.

        1. Yes Jimmy I mean the new style electromechanical just like they have on the 6.2 Superduties.

          Thx for clearing it up and by far they are much more efficient than the old school completely mechanical ones.

          I do believe Ram was the first to go here when the new 2003 Ram HD premiered with the new at the time Cummins Common rail 5.9?

          Ford and GM eventually followed, but I can’t remember when? I do remember hearing their loud clutch fans roaring away when one would take off at first cold or when they got hot!

          There’s been dyno tests done showing mechanical fans pulling upwards of 30hp when they lock up!

          I believe on the HD’s a locking clutch fan can pull something like 25,000cfm when locked vs the best twin electric fans designs from Ford & GM that are pulling 6,000-7,000cfm.

          1. Ford started using them on the 03 6.0L diesel. I can’t think of any thing prior. I would not be surprised if anyone started using them around that time too though. And yes I know full on mode pulls a ton of power. I had to replace a few over the years due to full lock and you could really tell the engine was down on power.

            1. I forgot to add is they really help the A/C system. When the clutch for the compressor is needed the fan can be sped up to help the condenser cooling.

    30. Drifter,

      There is no excuse for either to cause over heating.

      Engineers are just trying to use the smallest cooling package.

      And of course that means when you have a tough job you over heat.

      Even Davis dam road isn’t enough.

      When you leave Bakersfield going south in 115 degree temps. You are going uphill for 30 miles before you hit the Grapevine. That’s about another 7 degree climb for 10 miles.

      Many cars over heat before they reach the Grapevine. It’s rare to go up the Grapevine in the summer and not see a few pulled over with overheating problems.

      1. Agreed Buddy.

        After owning two Ecoboosts a 2015 and a 2018, I believe the electric fans are it’s Archilles Heal.

        On a hot day towing maximum loads, the combination of not loosing any power at altitude and electric fans is barely adequate. You can watch the temperatures spike with an accurate scan gauge.

        They do recover fast, but I can guarantee this is why the new diesel has a clutch fan.

        Same thing happens on the GM’s. You can watch every Ike video of the 1/2 tons with either 6.2’s or 5.3 V8’s and see the coolant gauge rising and just barely keeping things in check.

        Most people would be shocked seeing the actual digital # the coolant is reaching and freak out way before the computer pulls back power.

        Think back Durango SRT? 264*

        1. I have noticed the same with my 2014 Ecoboost, it get warm when towing at altitude here in Utah on 100F days. I do agree that the efans are an issue, and one of my theories is to remove the shroud and use those ziptie thingies to attach the fans straight to the radiator. This is so that at low speeds the electric fans still pull air through but at high speeds the natural flow of air from traveling at 65mph has the entire area of the radiator to flow through, not just two tiny fan holes.

          the other issue, and one i am working on fixing right now, is that they send the transmission fluid through the end tank on the cold side of the radiator. That means a huge portion of the radiator heat is getting offloaded on the coolant right before it heads into the engine. On the 2011-2014 F150 the 2002 Excursion transmission cooler is basically a direct drop in replacement and is 3x the size. I am planning on installing one and removing the radiator cooling loop to offload some of the heat from the coolant. Supposedly they did this on the 2018 Max Tow trucks.

          The thing is we expect more power in the same truck package while also achieving better MPG’s. They can only make the cooling systems so big and still achieve good aerodynamics and what not. I am sure it is proving to be a massive challenge to design a truck to tow 13,000 lbs and still achieve 20+ mpgs on the highway.

          1. Yes,
            Good points Real Jay.

            Problem is if you remove your shroud it will have a little more flow thru at higher speeds, but much less airflow thru the radiator when the fans are high pulling air through all of the radiator with the help of the shroud.

            Bypassing the trans cooler and eliminating it from dumping heat into the radiator would have a much better effective outcome.

            This is what Ford has done on the 2018’s with the 10spd and tow pkgs!

            They now have a stand alone water cooled heat exchanger that is mounted down by the transmission pan.

            No more hot transmission fluid touches the radiator!

            6spd trans have the conventional front mounted cooler that also goes through the radiator.

            2017 only the 3.5’s had the 10spd trans and as a carryover year ford still ran the up front cooler.

            2018’s with 10spd they have standardized everything, and now 2.7, 5.0, and 3.5 all get the new heat exchanger/cooler regardless of tow packages!

      2. Wait the Durango SRT got up to 264 degree coolant temps? Holy crap! I know the F150 temp needles start moving around 235 and then you get a dash warning at 246. 264 is outrageous.

    31. I wonder what turbos they are using for this? It looks like Garrett’s in the picture. They are using twins so they must be tiny to get this thing to full boil by 1750 RPM since they are only driving each turbo with 1.5L. I wonder if thats why the HP curve takes a dump after 3250.

    32. For running hot occasionally high temps are okay as long as you have fluid coolant and not steam pockets in the engine.

      But those spikes are not good. They put a lot of stress on the engine.

      Hot and cold cycles are bad.

      Constant temps are good.

      Cooling just seems to have been a problem for engineers.

      On my Kia 2l. It is very difficult to get the heater to blow hot air.

      I guess they have a fail safe coolant bypass to prevent the engine from over heating if the thermostats fails. Supposedly if it fails you can reduce speed and shut off the air conditioner and be fine for a few miles.

      Leaving West Yellowstone in June a few years back. We got 23 degrees and snow. After about 30 miles I had to turn the heater off to get the engine up to its normal range.

      Kids were MAD!!! 😂😂😊😊

      If it’s not one thing it’s another.

      1. This happens with my diesel Liberty. If I dont climb a hill after cold starting it, it wont ever heat up with the hvac fan on low. The when it does heat up, if I coast downhill for too long it cools off. T-stat is in good shape, its just the diesel idles so efficiently and cool that the air blowing through the grill and into the cabin is enough to cool it.

        1. When it is 20F and below our diesels will drop below 140 in minutes after being up to 175-180. It is a must to jump idle up to 1500 to maintain heat in those diesels.

          1. Yeah, I wrote a tune for my jeep that elevates the idle to 1000 rpm up to 60C coolant temps and then it drops down to the stock 760 rpm. Doesnt help when coasting though.

    33. JimmyJohns and Troverman,so I checked with a Ram Cummins tech and he said,that to prevent fuel gelling Cummins used a electric fuel heater mounted directly on the fuel filter housing,it also house’s it’s own thermostat.Coupled with a ECM control turbo waste gate,and a block heater,is the entire system for fast warm up.The cruise control automatically set rpm to 1000-1200 and upwards to 1500 for a fast warm up.

      1. My liberty had a heater in the filter head and they were notorious for overtemping and melting the plug. After that air would enter into the fuel head. Great design.

    34. Oh this is much, much worse than I had predicted and my prediction was terrible. I thought Ford would let us in an F150 with a V6 diesel for at or about $40K. Keep in mind…This truck starts at $21.4K in a work truck (exactly where a diesel this size belongs). But NO. Someone who wants a work truck but with a torquey little diesel that has performance commensurate for use as a half-ton weekend hauler, light tower in the lower classes, trims and configurations is held out for the truck configurations it’s best suited for, and instead is put in the higher trims, bigger wheels/tires, taller, larger, heavier, where the torquey little diesel will be under powered and/or over worked, thereby making another diesel in another pickup a bad decision for anyone except maybe fleet buyer.

      See I’ve seen this played out once before, but I held out hope for Ford, as they usually give the customer more choices with more engines. For example, GM holds out their most capable gas engine until one gives a dealer $47K, but Ford will let one have their most capable engine in a std cab, long bed, XL for under $33K. So when GM came out with the Colorado and Canyon for a base price around $22K and announced a four cylinder diesel the following year, I hoped for a sub-$30K compact pickup with a neat little diesel in it; but NO; GM holds the little, 181 horsepower Duramax out until one gets to the size and duty truck where it is under powered and/or over stressed, and that’s exactly what Ford is doing only worse. Instead of $14K for a diesel, Ford wants at least $18K more than the base price on the F150 for an F150 with a diesel. They can play pricing tricks all they want, but that’s what it boils down to.

    35. If light-duty diesels are ever going to catch hold in this country, they’re going to have to figure out a way, technologically speaking, to build them and certify them much cheaper for North American sales. GM in one way is on the right track trying to keep costs low with their current light duty offerings. They’re using cast iron, four cylinders, solenoid injectors, Thai production; but then they still turn around and try to ask too much money for them. Ford on the other hand, is using very expensive materials and U.K. production for this new diesel, which is good for refinement and weight savings and maybe even quality control, but it’s all for not if it’s too expensive. How about something like an F100 with a lower tow and payload rating, a 3.4L four cylinder, single turbo, cast iron, solenoid injectors; bring down the height and the weight; wheel/tire sizes so it has diesel power to weight ratio; go back to something like a reasonable full size truck; market it as a fuel miser; and a usable tool; not a heavy towing monster truck with a small diesel? Yeah (I know) that’s not what most Americans want, but that’s what I want. I’m not all about going backward, but I’ve got the smallest F150 you can get, and I can barely get in the seat without hopping, and I can’t even think about reaching in to the bed floor.

    36. Truck Camper magazine does not recommend the diesel for truck campers because of low payload capacity.

      They claim the 2200 lbs payload is only for the fleet commercial sales truck.

      When the diesel is added to the truck offered to the public they claim payload drops below 1500lbs. Five people alone could easily be 750 lbs.

      They claim even with the 3.5tt it is very difficult to find a f150 with more than 1500 lbs payload because dealers always try to stock top of the line models.

      Right now their recommendation is to buy your camper first. Then wait to see the payload on the truck you want.

      They only recommend the 3.5tt at this time.

      With the possible exception of the lightest folding campers.

    37. Waiting eagerly for these new 3.0 L Diesels
      How long is that BELT in the ford going to last, I wonder?
      If I had to pick today,
      I’d take the GMC/Chev I-6. Can’t beat 6 cylinders on a row !

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