• Chevy, Jeep, or Toyota? Colorado ZR2 Takes on Tacoma TRD Pro and Wrangler Rubicon on the Cliffhanger

    chevy colorado zr2 toyota tacoma trd pro jeep wrangler rubicon recon
    Chevy Colorado ZR2 vs. Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro vs. Rubicon Recon

    Which is the best off-road midsize pickup truck? We find out by matching up the (Best Seller) Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro and the (Newcomer) Chevy Colorado ZR2 against the (Benchmark) Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Recon. We take all three on the most difficult off-road challenge we call the Cliffhanger 2.0.

    Cliffhanger 2.0 is a Colorado Rocky Mountain trail near the Switzerland Trail. It’s steep (up to 21 degrees of incline), it’s loaded with large loose rocks, and the Razor Bend is a dangerous obstacle with jagged rocks. Only trucks and SUVs with sophisticated 4×4 systems, plentiful ground clearance, and very good off-road tires can tackle this mountain.

    Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Recon

    The Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Recon is in this comparison, because it is the off-road benchmark when it comes to midsize SUVs and trucks. The Recon edition of the Rubicon also happens to be the most off-road capable JK Wrangler from the factory. It has a slight 0.5-inch lift (over a standard Rubicon). It has stronger axles and differential covers, and 32-inch BFGoodrich mud-terrain tires. It still has front and rear lockers and a disconnectable front sway bar for additional wheel articulation.

    Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro

    The Tacoma remains the best-selling midsize pickup in the United States by a huge margin. The TRD Pro version is the most off-road ready Tacoma. It has a specially tuned suspension with FOX Racing shocks, additional underbody protection, and a crawl-control system. It’s riding on 30-inch Goodyear Wrangler tires with Kevlar.

    Chevy Colorado ZR2

    This is the most off-road capable Chevrolet pickup truck you can currently buy from the factory. It is taller, wider, and has front and rear locking differentials. The ZR2 rides on specially tuned Multimatic DSSV spool-valve shocks, and it has lots more approach angle than any other Chevy Colorado. It’s riding on 31-inch Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac tires.

    Join all the action in the video below.

    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov is an Automotive Enthusiast, Producer, Reviewer, Videographer, Writer, Software Engineer, Husband, Father, and Friend.

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    139 thoughts on “Chevy, Jeep, or Toyota? Colorado ZR2 Takes on Tacoma TRD Pro and Wrangler Rubicon on the Cliffhanger

    1. It will be the ZR2. Better shocks, better lockers.
      The Chevy will get you there better, but the Toyota will more likely get you back, if you know what I mean.

      1. Notice they didn’t choose either of their new or old Raptors to be the rescue vehicle anymore now that they have a Powerwagon. Powerwagon reigns supreme 40 years ago, and still does. Not my judgement–TFL’s.

        1. @Stinger: Wouldn’t it be better to ask instead of making an assumption?

          @TFLTruck: Why the PowerWagon for the rescue vehicle instead of Roman’s Raptor? I know you state one reason being the PW has a winch, but so does Roman’s Raptor.

            1. Raptor is a pretty girls car. Powerwagon is a man’s truck. That said, they need to make the PW even better.

            2. Yes, Daniel, everybody can tell. Its not a secret. Maybe you should go expand your horizons and look at other web sites and see that screen names are not meant to be your real name or consistent. If you want that , there are registered forums with memberships.
              Why am I repeatedly explaining this to an adult?

            3. Drove a power wagon for a few days. They may be great on the trails but otherwise was the worst vechile I’ve ever drove on pavement. Would never ever spend my own money on one!

            4. If you running trucks up and down a trail repeatedly would you use a free truck given to you, or your personal truck? On top of that these vehicles were given to you with the expectation they will get time in front of the camera. Critical thinking is required here.

            5. PowerWagon on pavement is rated better than Raptor on pavement by trusted independent testers, so very skeptical of the intentions or savvy of your comment.

              Better critical thinking says that none of the three are going to pull out any of the other three without danger. The PowerWagon will have no trouble with it. And the old Raptor with the winch struggles more than the PowerWagon as a rescue vehicle and a camera vehicle. Of course the new Raptor has no place for a winch.

            6. Yes, that is a part of a comment section. Its about he truth spoken, not the person saying it. And it has always been that way. I am from Silicon Valley, where we invented things like websites and comment sections. It has always been this way. That is what is so funny. You old guys have these weird notions of “netiquette”. That’s what it is called, but I am sure you didn’t know that.
              I care about truth, not where it comes from. And having fun with names, just like everyone else on the net.

            7. Stinger and your 5 other names, since you are from Silicon Valley you should know what the term “internet troll” is. That is you! Someone that continues to cause controversy and does not stay on topic. You believe you speak the truth but you just speak from your hatefulness and bias. Not the TRUTH.

            8. Trolls are those that don’t stay on topic. I am the one who addressed topic, and no one has give evidence to the contrary or stayed on topic. So again, you also have posted off topic, yet I did not start that tangent.

            9. After much internal debate, I decided I was wrong. While I hate Ford and especially the Raptor I am making enemies and being a non productive participant at this internet site. I apologize for my actions and hope you guys can forgive me. I will continue my relentless Ford basing at PUTC because that is what we do there. Here I can tell you guys wish to talk about trucks instead of bashing. So I will leave the bashing to zivera and continue to welcome his bashing against everything Ford at putc.

        2. Hi Stinger,

          I drive a 2018 Raptor. The Power Wagon has a better sounding engine and may be more capable in certain situations off road, or it may not. Otherwise, the Raptor flattens the PowerWagon in pretty much every other conceivable aspect. Speed, handling, ride quality, fuel economy, features and amenities, looks, you name it. What actually feels “pretty girly” are the small tires on the Power Wagon, and its payload. Both are less than the Raptor, despite the PW being the “man’s” truck.

          1. Um…PW has higher payload and tow ratings than raptor. You may be the first man to characterize a PW as “girly” haha. Also, MT had negative review on the raptor in their king of the north comparison, in which they complained of lack of stability during high speed driving on rough roads, something the raptor was specifically designed for and should have excelled at. The PW on the other hand was supposedly quite stable. Truth is both the raptor and PW are amazing trucks.

            1. Rusty, I don’t think the PW is girly…I think the tires are too small. The payload for a “base” Powerwagon is 1466…but with added feature content it can drop below the Raptor. A fully loaded Raptor has a 1200lb payload, and slightly more than that for a base Raptor. I’m referring to crew cabs. While I never said anything about towing…the PW out-tows the Raptor by about 1700lbs. What makes the PW look bad is the fact that it is a 3/4-ton HD truck…while the Raptor is merely a half-ton.

              I read the MotorTrend article. Since I own one, I can say they are correct. The back end does stutter around much more than I’d like…and even more than a standard F-150. Like other Raptor owners, I’ve found lowering the tire pressures slightly certainly helps.

        3. Probably because the possibility that any of the three contestants would get stuck was low? So using your rational, the Ram would be there just for show.

          Can we watch and enjoy these videos with out your inane comments. Once in a while it is fun but it gets old real fast. Knowing when to quit, when a little more is too much is generally a sign of maturity.

          1. You would have to prove that the specific comment on the specific issue was inane, rather than just against your inane interest. You see, I care more about Truth, than being inane, or getting an inane assertion. So do you have anything substantive to add on one of these specific issues here?

      2. @Glen H: First comment about Toyota’s USA light truck questionable QDR. Here we go again. How many generations of Tacoma’s had a problem with frame rust? Isn’t there a multi-billion dollar settlement for frame rust? Do you know what it cost to replace a frame? It’s about $15K and the owner is out of their truck for several months or more. And if you’re thinking that Toyota is doing the right thing, the only reason for the settlement is a class action law suit; Toyota did not come forward on their own, like they did for the first instance of frame rust.

        1. Replacing the frame on a Tacoma takes only two days. Several coworkers had theirs replaced in years past. They also had the option to replace brake and fuel lines at extra cost (but reduced labor thanks to easy access) if they chose.

          1. @Troverman: true, it may take two days, but there’s a lengthy wait for the frame and parts. I had a coworker that waited six months for his frame. That was last year.

            1. Waiting for parts is different than being out of your truck, unless the frame was so bad it wasn’t safe to drive. I’m amazed at how Toyota actually had to replace all these frames, but Jeep Wrangler frames have rotted out every bit as bad since the YJ and at least through the TJ. Jeep has done nothing to correct that issue for owners.

            2. There are several detailed posts on Tacoma message boards where the owner had their Tacoma sitting at the dealer for months waiting for a replacement frame. Some had their truck parked so long the tires had vibration problems afterwards from tire flat spotting.

            3. I have heard of no one waiting for a frame for a third gen Tacoma. It is funny how people keep bringing this up. At least Toyota replaced the frames. What is GM doing about all the cabin pressure and vibration issues? The frame issue is old news guys.

            4. I believe he was referring to 2nd gen Tacomas. I’ve read posts created by frustrated owners waiting for frames for months too.

              Also, Toyota didnt replace all the rotted frames. They had very specific criteria that needed to be met in order to qualify. There was a time deadline. Quite a few owners didn’t know about the replacement campaign until it was too late. During inspection, if there were no perforations in the frame, even if it was extremely rusty and flaking away, you didn’t get a frame, you merely got a free undercoating applied over the flaking rotting frame. Only if you had holes 10mm or larger through the side of the frame would Toyota approve replacement. The inspection procedure has been available online for a while now. There were plenty of 2nd gen owners that got turned down for frame replacement despite having severe corrosion.

            5. Also, frame rot on the 3rd gen will occur, it’s only a matter of time. When the 1st gen Tacoma had massive frame rot issues, Tacoma fans were confident that Toyota fixed the problem wheb the 2nd gen went on sale. Then when Early 2nd gen trucks developed rust rot, Tacoma fans were confident that the latest model year 2nd gens wouldn’t have the same issues because surely Toyota was doing something about it. Fast forward to 2016 and Toyota is wrapped up in a major legal battle. The evidence was presented and Toyota was found to be at fault for selling 1.5 million trucks and SUV’s with frames that they knew had poor corrosion protection (the very design of the frame causes it to trap mud and road salt, promoting severe corrosion). Even the T100 was famous for rust rot. Why would anyone expect Toyota to have fixed the rust problem with the 3rd gen when they didn’t do anything over the last 25+ years to stop the rot?

            6. Brick there is no perfect truck. Most companies work in collusion with one another in my opinion. You will lose money no matter what truck you buy unless you are lucky. They are all made to break in one form or another in order to sell more vehicles. I hear they spend millions just to make sure a door handle will break after umpteen times of use, if it doesn’t it is back to the drawing board to see where they can save money and make it weaker. Yes they can build a perfect truck and then the company would die, yes they can create a pill that cures many ailments but pills are only made to relieve illnesses not cure them as that is bad for business. What companies enjoy is when we all argue together, which piece of garbage is better, because then the focus is off of them, so they can continue along on their marry way and suck the economy dry so no one retires. If we all retired who would make toilet paper? And I need to go for a sht now.

      1. @Daniel: + 1
        That was a good off-test for the three vehicles. The Wrangler and ZR2 had tires suited for the task. The Tacoma should have had new OEM tires. Why Toyota didn’t put replace them is a bit of a mystery.

        One more thing: the background music reminded me of “Unchained” and “Crusty Demons of Dirt”.

        1. Toyota has always put the crappiest tires on their Tacos. I don’t look for it to change and at least it’s not Dunlop’s! I’ll take the Taco’s high tech 4WD system over those low hanging ZR2 shocks and front locker. The difference here was obvious between the Chevy and Toyota – tires. Duratracs are a far superior tire to the Adventures, especially with 17K miles on a stock tire. Put a set of Duratracs on the Taco and it will be fine. Then again, the Taco made it too so we are left saying mine made it look easier than yours. Would I take a front locker? Yes. Do I need one? In 25 years I have not. I’m glad the ZR2 has front lockers and hope the Ranger Raptor does the same. Toyota needs to be pushed and pushed hard. Heck, at this rate we Taco brethren may get a power seat out of this. LOL. Nice video guys!

          1. The Toyota definitely had the worst tires of the group…but they aren’t horrible. For a rocky trail like this, though…the tread design is no where near as important as trying to get though mud or loose dirt.

            1. I really like my Adventures on road Troverman but they are terrible off road. To me it is amazing that the truck will do what it will do with those tires. As I get older I like the techy 4WD systems as opposed to the simpler systems of days past and like those in the Colorado. I guess I’m getting lazy and want my truck to think for me. :). Those are 3 very good off road vehicles there but absent some really stiff off road vehicles coming from the Jeep truck and Ranger Toyota will likely continue to give us tires that won’t do much off road. To their credit they are appealing to the masses with the soft street friendly light AT tires but what about a better tire as an option?

            2. @Moondog-

              The Wrangler Adventure w/ Kevlar is also the standard tires used on Ford pickups with the FX4 off road package. I think a lot of it comes down to a tire that can achieve good fuel economy, be quiet on the highway, have decent grip, provide good rain traction and acceptable snow traction, and have a long life. Meeting all of these requirements forces compromises in almost all areas I mentioned. The Adventure seems to be pretty decent in snow (our 2016 F-150 FX4 has these tires and went well last year) and is perfectly fine on the highway. I have not driven the truck off road. I do find my Raptor’s BFG KO2’s are so far the best compromise tire I’ve ever had. Very quiet on the highway, severe-service rated for snow, and decent off-road. I’ve run BFG Mud Terrain KM2’s and the KO2’s are nowhere near as good in mud…but then again the KM2’s are horrible in slippery conditions and are noiser with less grip and more impact on mpg. I like you idea of an “optional” tire.

            3. Troverman, an optional tire brings a lot of QDR into the table at an expense. I believe Mercedes wont even allow a tire change without voiding warranty but it all depends on the vehicle and manufacturer

          2. The Tacoma’s 4×4 system has a neat gimmick but it’s certainly no ssuperior. A rear axle with a high pinion and reverse cut ring gear is roughly 30% weaker than a traditional low pinion rear axle. Combine with a tiny 8″ ring gear and 3.90-4.30 gear ratios and it’s easy to see why so many Tacomas have rear diff failures. The rear shock mou he are positioned to the outside but as I experienced myself, salty winters cause those shock mounts to rot away. Placing them in the wheel wells does that, especially with the rust-prone steel Toyota uses. The front diff has a well-known vibration problem that went unfixed for my 2nd gen and appears to still plague 3rd gen trucks. The front suspension is made up of weak stamped steel A-arms and a frail steering knuckle. These components have major aftermarket replacement support as they break pretty fast once you put on bigger tires and play on the trails a while.

            They’re fun trucks to customize but they require many upgrades in order to actually hold up.

            1. If you think CRAWL is a gimmick then you have never seriously tried it. I would also bet you don’t wheel a lot either. I do. I have wheeled for over 25 years and can tell you CRAWL allows you to do some things 90% of off-road drivers cannot do. It works but it takes patience. I like easy now. I don’t feel I have to prove myself by using a lower tech 4WD system. I prefer the Taco. My choice. You may not. Your choice. Best of luck to you.

            2. Crawl is a JOKE. Guys who offroad do it for the challenge, not pressing a button and letting the computer do it for you. That would be the equivalent of going to a race track and letting the computer drive the car.

            3. I agree the crawl system is a gimmick but does not make something superior. To be perfectly honest, the laws of traction need to be looked at. Crawl uses traction control, brake and throttle based. I unequivocally guarantee a truck with locking front and rear diffs will be the most capable vehicle for being able to move forward in difficult conditions. Toyota pulsing the brakes on a wheel here or there while slowly applying throttle is still simply not as good as being able to turn all four wheels simultaneously at the same speed. I put crawl control as another gimmick right up there with Land Rover’s Terrain Response and the Raptor’s Drive Modes, and whatever everyone else calls their system.

              Brake-based traction control is absolutely useful when no locker is present. But a locker always supersedes traction control in terms of the ultimate ability to gain traction.

            4. @Brick, I off-road and over the years it is nice sometimes to sit back and watch technology work. I have no issues going where I need to go in my Taco and my last Tacos. Then again I ave wheeled in a bit of everything over the years. Guys that have called it a gimmick that later used it agree it is far from a gimmick but more of a tool. I’d take a front locker like anyone else. I just don’t need it. It is also nice to be able to wheel rattle and squeak free in my Tacos, something I could never do in my GM vehicles.

            5. Moondog I can see a big advantage in the Crawl control when you want to position your body anywhere in the vehicle to look for obstacles where without it you could not reach the gas pedal, also coming down hills steep hills the vehicle can brake independent tires to keep the vehicle straight on the way down. It is also a much smoother consistent throttle going over rough terrain. My brother in law loves it, its like being pampered off road. Maybe a young jockey full of pss and vinegar needs to flex and go without but not for many who enjoy it

            6. Megadan and Troverman are spot on in this debate!

              A high pinion rear axle is weak!!! Its driving everything from the coasting side of the gears where there is way less metal or strength.

              CRAWL is no substitute for real lockers in fact the biggest element that makes it work ok is the rear LOCKER! Without this it would be almost useless!

              Nobody is really saying much about the Jeep going up the hill so effortlessly, but it is astonishing how easy the old school solid axles and real lockers front and rear make it work off road!

          3. I’ll take a front locker and diesel torque over the Taco’s “drives itself” computer any day of the week. You don’t need a computer to do the driving for you when you have the proper tools, and the ZR2 has the tools

    2. ZR2 did the best for a machine with a typical and usable box. 4 wheel lock is subject to low gear only though. Nothing so far beats the versatility of the AWD in the Raptor which allows for a better 4×4 system at higher speeds through mud holes or climbing sand dunes. The ZR2 should also move the shock mounts closer to the wheels like what the jeep has. I would worry about the low shock mounts on the ZR2. The Tacoma has worse tires for this terrain but you will appreciate them more on pavement hard packed snow and icy roads. However, the ZR2 has a better V6 and is the cheaper truck by almost 5000 dollars in Canada unless yo get the manual Tacoma which is 2000 more than the ZR2. And GM offers better financing and more dealership locations. Tacoma offers more towing, faster at stopping, but less seat adjustment, but it conforms to short people better and even tall people depending on driver position preference, and Tacoma has more body and ground clearance. The question is resale. I think the ZR2 will also bring a high resale but thats a gamble. If I had to pick I would pick the ZR2 and gamble because it has the better motor and it sounds better and the throttle response is better in the ZR2. If it had the V8 I would own one right now. Both need better engines and both need 4 wheel steering on the long box as there is almost always that extra move you have to do when parking and exiting a parking spot due to a poor steering radius. And an adjustable suspension would be nice like what the Ram Rebel has, but in the form of pneumatic shocks instead of air ride.

      1. Rambro…a Raptor compliment? Wow. But AWD mode would not be used for this rocky trail. The Raptor also only has a locking rear diff, although most have the optional Torsen mechanical limited slip front diff which works automatically and at all times 4×4 is engaged (even AWD mode) but without steering binding. The Raptor does have the largest tires, and they are a solid design.

        I also noticed the ZR2 has shocks that are more inboard compared to the Jeep…not as good a design for handling or off road.

        Engine output in terms of off road is not terribly important…low range provides all the torque needed. The original Land Rovers had only 80hp and they could go anywhere. Now for on-road driving, yeah a better engine is nicer.

        Will be interesting to watch the next matchup of PW vs Raptor. The PW’s solid front axle will likely be advantageous off road…they usually are.

        1. Raptor is a good machine Troverman, king of trucks for me but the V6 lacks character for me. I would have still considered it but in order to get a trailering package the Raptor bumps up to 87 grand plus 13% tax in Ontario. Then Ford in Ontario charges 7% interest on the loan. Its 110,000 dollars for that truck in Ontario. Sadly my Tundra Crewmax has the same payload as the Raptor but at 55,000 its half the price and it has the V8 accoustics.

          1. Crazy money, Rambro. Trailer package is only a trailer brake controller, which could be added after. But that is a lot of dough. Consider moving to where I live in NH…zero sales tax! But we do have expensive annual registration.

            1. I will be near the US border when I go down South next week to get my 2017 Tundra Then I will be sitting at the poker tables at the Casino with a Canadian beer. If I can meet a US girlfriend there and marry her, I will take you up on that.

            2. So are you getting a Tundra for sure Rambro? Your truck buying experience has been quite the roller coaster ride! LOL

            3. Yes Moondog I pick up my Tundra this week, the roller coaster will continue however. I want to trade every 2 years if I can. 2020 should be exciting. The Tundra is old but for me as a first time buyer will be happy with it. It has the moonroof and the entire rear window draws down under power. Be a bit of a different experience and the back seats are massive. Hard to park though and it can handle off road work but the fun factor is down from a Tacoma as it is heavy and large. 4 wheel steering would make a huge difference. I miss the Sierra quadsteer.

            4. Rambro, did you get the crew cab? The Tundra is a great truck and to me it still looks good. It’s due for a redesign and around 2020 you will see an all new Tundra.

            5. Moondog I said it below. I got the Tundra Crewcab TRD Offroad. And in Black. Had to go South as there were no 2017’s left in Black where I am. Box is a bit short but the big back seats have there advantages.

            6. That sounds like a great truck. I swore I would never buy a black vehicle again – too hard to keep up – but they are nice. We do have a very dark gray (Iridium Metallic) Yukon that looks nice and is not as hard to keep up as I thought. The Tundra will serve you well.

            7. The Tundra has a flimsy open C frame, guzzles gas like a 3/4-ton gasser, is still plagued with oil leaks from the cam tower, vibrations from the front diff and 2-piece driveshaft, premature wheel bearing failures, frame rot, a completely defectuve factory trailer brake controller that Toyota seems unable or uninterested in fixing, air injection pump failures, etc. NoQDRTundra has shared a detailed and well-documented histiry of his problems with a 2nd gen Tundra. They’re far from a “great” truck judging by all the problems he and others have had. Don’t get me wrong, 10 years ago it was great. But 10 years later, it’s overpriced for the flimsy, rusty gas guzzler it currently is.

            8. Brick, if all that happens to me in two years then I better stop buying lottery tickets. You forgot to mention all the problems that Ram, Ford and GM are plagued with, but consumer reports does and the Tundra is statistically a better buy if you want something reliable plus it is a fact that I can see with my own eyes when I look at resale that the Tundra loses the least amount of money here in Ontario.

            9. Moondog, the reason I went with Black is that it does look good and it is the most sought after color which may bring me a higher resale. I just had my Tacoma buffed for 200 bucks and it looks brand new again for the trade in.

            1. They will, they could build the ultimate truck now but then there would be nowhere to go but down, so they have to stay midway up the hill for as long as they can in order to sell a better model each year.

            2. I think the Tundra will be an excellent truck for you. Ignore the GM trolls on here. They have made their way over from PUTC.

      2. Rambro, I don’t look for the ZR2 to have the kind of resale you think they will have. They are discounting them fairly heavily and that is never a good sign. The Tacoma will continue to have a crazy resale and the 18s are getting a lot of much needed options. Also, given the late arrival of the 18s I think there may be some unspoken mechanical updates. Time will tell.

        1. I never got to try a Tacoma Pro but I did get into the ZR2 and give it a good run. I prefer it over the Tacoma. The ZR2 tires did pick up rocks and spit them out on the pavement but you had to listen to the rocks in the tires go tick tick tick to about 60mph before the tire cleaned them out. Not something I prefer, I prefer the Tacoma tires for everyday use for better ice and hard packed snow traction and better pavement manners. If I had to pick a midsize I dont know if I would have picked the Pro over the ZR2. The ZR2 also has a huge advantage of AWD which For me is a huge luxury option

          But I moved into full sized now. After an exhausting search for a truck I got the deal I wanted on a Tundra CrewMax TRD OffRoad. Optioned with hard tonneau cover accoustic upgrade for the country music and remote start. I almost bought the ZR2 and I almost bought Silverado because the deals were so good but I looked a two year ownership with plans to trade in 2020 for whatever comes along. Chevy even offered 32,000 for my Tacoma. Toyota finally came up from 28,500 after I tried to buy out the lease to trade it for the Chevy. Either way I was drawn to the Tundra overall but Toyota was ripping me off on the trade initially. Chevy still had the better deal and AWD but not in a two year scenario with resale considered on the Tundra. Works out that I only lost 12,000 in 36 months on my Tacoma and a lot of that is fees and 13% tax and I never paid a cent for any extra care for the vehicle other than keeping it clean. So I am almost in a new truck again and drove new for 333/month Canadian. Thats like 2 dollars American. I think we are on par with a peso now.

          The Tundra suits me, I never thought character would be a reason to swing my vote but all makes and models bring a social stigma and heritage with them and my character suits the Tundra which was the swing vote here that made me pay a bit more over the chevy deal. Told them to throw the low hanging air dam out on the Chev, but I dont have to deal with that now. I got 1% financing for the Tundra, with a 1/2 point discount for loyalty. GM was even better at 0%. Ford had a great engine but for me it has no character and the salesman was too good for me. Ram is great but wrong timing, they were at 3.5% interest and I am getting 7000 back on my trade at 1% interest to pay down a loan at 6% so I wanted the low financing. And I believe the Tundra will lose me the least amount of money when I trade, likely in 2020

          I like the Tundra, it is a lot like me, reliable, dependable, puts up with cold weather, good looking, overweight and old.

          1. Congrats, Rambro. You’ve been kind of all over the place, but you finally settled on a replacement for your Tacoma. I think it will be a good truck for you. Brick listed some issues, but you’re absolutely correct that every brand has its own list of issues. All have strengths and weaknesses. Sounds like you got a nice truck. I’ve always thought the power rear lowering window is very cool and wondered why the others don’t do it. A buddy of mine just traded his 2009 Duramax 2500 for a used 2014 CrewMax Tundra, loaded up like yours. Nice truck for sure. Too bad this forum won’t allow pics, would be nice to see a pic of what everyone is buying.

            1. Troverman, You can use sites like Imgur to upload links to photos.

              Be nice if TFL did something that was a little easier as you have to upload the photo to Imgur then copy paste the link to this thread.

              I think I will enjoy the truck, I am excited about the extra room but not so much about parking the large behemoth without quadsteer. Big thanks to TFL for all their reviews as it really helps out when you go shopping.

          1. Ned it was the Silverado, read the post. Never said ZR2 was discounted but I did almost buy it. It was easy to park had a good motor but the box was a bit small. I could have managed though. Just a comprimise from full size to midsize. The extra size of the Tundra is both a hindrance and an advantage, silverado and Sierra had great deals and offered a fair trade which was respectable. They were offering 0% on the 2017 ZR2 however for 60 months and 750 dollars off msrp and they are hard to find.

            1. I got almost 7K off a ZR2 when I was looking and that is heavy for the type truck it is. You’ll never get that on a Taco.

            2. Yeah, around here the V6’s are discounted. The Dmax ZR2’s i am sure are right at MSRP like all the Dmax Colorados seem to be.

            3. Looking at TrueCar, dealers in my area are selling ZR2’s for between $1500 off and MSRP. No crazy discounts here. You mentioned St. Louis, which is supposed to be close to the plant that builds the Colorado, so maybe they can afford to let them sell for less. $6k off just seems really hard to believe, that’s a crazy discount.

          2. Well I mean heavy for what it is. How is over $6K? You can’t get that on a Taco “Bud” but this is nowhere near what the mega dealers were giving away on these GM twins this time last year “Bud”. Try Sapaugh in St. Louis is you what 6K.

            1. You said they were “heavily” discounting the ZR2. Now you’re saying $6k off the GM twins last year. LOL okay bud.

        2. You seem pretty eager to promote the least reliable midsize truck of 2016. Between all the engine problems and failing rear diffs, I wouldn’t waste my money paying a premium for a truck with a well-known frame rot problem. Maybe if Toyota had stuck with the 4.0 but I have heard nothing but complaints about the 3.5. All kinds of stalling and hesitation problems. Not to mention they knock tick and rattle like an old Chevy. The Jeep Wrangler pickup is going to dominate the rest. Between the SFA and massive aftermarket for the Wrangler, the weak Tacoma and gas guzzling ZR2 won’t be able to compete. Resale value is an argument born out of desperation. The 3rd gen Tacoma has been criticized for disappointing engines, transmission problems, failing rear diffs, unreliability (verified by Consumer Reports), etc. All that is left in its defense is resale value. I don’t buy trucks based on how much I can sell them for, I buy them for the enjoyment and durability they provide. The upcoming Jeep pickup has the best chance of delivering on that.

        3. ZR2 definitely aren’t being discounted. They’re hard to find and almost impossible to get below MSRP. Hell even getting a ZR2 Diesel at MSRP requires a massive effort.

        1. Pneumatic meaning what the Bollinger B1 is bringing in 2019 to the truck world and what Citroen has used in the French cars in Europe for decades now and what is used in the new replacement for the hummer that the military is now using.

          1. Hdyropneumatic suspension.
            Doesn’t specifically have anything to do with shocks, though damping could be integrated into the system. Pretty neat setup.
            Much more complicated and expensive than a steel spring however. Considerably more maintenance as well. Might be worth it for some. It would be cool if they could make a business case for offering it as an option.

            1. Sparky21, it can be done, Europe has used it for decades now for their poor roads because of its superior ride and comfort. Jay Leno has backed it as the best suspension ever offered on any vehicle modified or not and he owns every type of vehicle on the planet. The suspension exists on their cheap cars in Europe along with the expensive cars. It is already being done and it works.

              I belive it can be integrated to control a lot of other power options as well like power brakes. Now you get rid of conventional power brakes, so that eliminates one complicated system right there. And replace it with this system that is proven to work. The huge advantage is better, softer ride, the mobility to lower and raise your vehicle and load levelling and the ability to give trucks a higher payload. What? Why does that not make business sense, if it has been used for decades on a proven platform for Citroen, the military now uses it and Bollinger is said to be bringing it? What red tape is holding it back? Makes no sense to me. It has too many advantages and its proven and backed by Jay Leno, the ultimate car guy.

    3. Roman – – –

      Didn’t like this test as currently done.

      The old Tacoma tires with 72K miles on them was not a fair test of the Tacoma.

      if you want to test each vehicle’s inherent capabilities, please start with the same brand of NEW tires. Buyers can always easily swap out tires.


      1. Bernie they dont have the capacity to switch all the tires. Its not the way the dealer offers it so that would also be considered modifying the vehicle and many would complain about the fairness of that.

        1. But running one with old tires and two with clearly new tires makes a difference. Either way they all three made it up without issue.

          1. I remember in 2015 how journalists from elsewhere tore a hole into Toyota’s rectum for having off road tires on their Pro series trucks both in the Tundra and the Tacoma. Now that the ZR2 has off road tires the auto journalists praise GM up and down for it.

            Someone should do a You Tube video on the shit that came from PUTC and Off road.com and others on the Tacoma Pro series off road tires in 2015 vs the Chevy reviews in 2017 just to showcase the bias from GM to Toyota reviews. It would be both shameful and hysterical.

            1. Kind of like the bias coming from journalists that brag about the Tacoma and its supposed “quality and durability”. That despite so the quality problems lately? I was pretty surprised when an issue of Consumer Reports arrived last fall that said the 2016 Tacoma was the worst midsize truck for reliability. Never a mention from reviewers though. Not one word about the ancient drum brakes (in 2017? What a joke!), the 3.5’s engine problems, the rear axle failures, the automatic trans problems, the air conditioning problems, etc. Even the history of frame rot, bed rust, tailgate failures, wheel bearing problems, broken differentials, etc. I mean, if Jon not mistaken, Toyota just lost a massive lawsuit for frames that litterally rust in half, yet not one word or consideration from journalists. Growing up in the Northeast, Toyota pickups have always rotted at a legendary pace. Unless you drench them in oil once a month, they rot away into dust. 3 decades later and not one word about the substandard steel they use.

        1. Yes, 17k. The tires are nice on road but I was off-road this weekend and I want something better. They clog up in any form of soft dirt.

          1. Yeah I’m not a big fan of Goodyear’s AT tires in general. Even the Duratracs have some downsides (weak sidewalls, very noisy compared to other all-terrain/mud tire hybrids).

    4. They are running what was issued to them.If they changed out all the tires on all the factory test vehicles,Tfltrucks would be broke in very short order.

      1. It seems like it’s on the mfgs to do this since they are the ones handing these trucks out in an effort to impress customers.

        1. Jay S, Rambro, Moondog, and Lohchief – – –

          JS: “It seems like it’s on the mfgs to do this since they are the ones handing these trucks out in an effort to impress customers.”

          I fully agree. TFLT is essentially giving free advertising and publicity to these vehicle models, and I would think that the manufacturers could chip in a little bit here too. If Roman specified his favorite new OR tire, then all three could come equipped that way, and there would by no “unfair issues” with differences in traction.

          R and LC: “…they don’t have the capacity to switch all the tires.” — and — “If they changed out all the tires on all the factory test vehicles, Tfltrucks would be broke in very short order.”

          Yes, both of you are right. But there has to be some way to “level the playing field” in this traction issue. Putting old (essentially) all-season tires with 72K miles on them, — up against new OR tires with just a few miles on them — is not going to “cut it”. Remember, many readers use these results to influence their decision to actually buy a certain vehicle.

          If manufacturers won’t chip in to get Roman his specified tires, then what if TFLT set up a separate fund (Independent of the small Patreon donations) for all of us to contribute? Perhaps the tire supplier could give Roman a BIG deal if that shop were also advertised here on the TFLT website?

          R: “…[some] would also be considered modifying the vehicle and many would complain about the fairness of that.”

          Yeah. But which “unfairness” is greater? Remember that some folks may complain about almost anything if their favorite brand is being “taken to the cleaners” (^_^)…

          MD: “But running one with old tires and two with clearly new tires makes a difference.”

          It sure did!

          MD: “Either way they all three made it up without issue.”

          This brings up a very good point. But I must say that, IMO, the only vehicle that really made it up “without issue” was the Wrangler. The other two dug in and spun wheels at times…

          But the issue you are raising is: “without issue”. Is there a way to MEASURE the “issue” of ease or difficulty in getting up an OR course like Cliffhanger 2.0?? Two suggestions:
          1) Medium One: Time the vehicles with a stop watch during a certain section, say the “Dare” route. If vehicles are driven similarly, then the shortest time wins.
          [I am saying “Medium”, because there are essentially two OR driving (non mud-bogging) methods : “Crawl traction” and “Speed momentum”.
          If someone has poor traction but compensates with speed, he/she could theoretically blast up Cliffhanger 2.0; destroy the vehicle; but win the event!]

          2) Good one: Get an accelerometer app** for your smartphone, and measure the forward and backward lurches of the vehicle (NOT up and down!). The fewer and the milder the lurches, the less that vehicle had an “issue” with getting to the top of Cliffhanger 2.0. [Since TFLT already measures the Ike Gauntlet quantitatively, this method would complement that one for OR tests.]

          ** Example: https://turbofuture.com/cell-phones/10-Best-Accelerometer-Apps


          1. Bernie it would be a lot easier making a roller ramp out of 2×4’s and spindles. Its easy to do, even something large like what Chevy used to showcase the ZR2. You put the truck on the ramp incline and done. Or you can even put a magic carpet on a hill and wet it with a hose. Chevy does this to test their 4×4. Its on you tube. Then they need to find a sand hill where the dune buggy competitions take place. Climbing a sandy hill under full throttle takes 4 wheel lock out of the equation. Now you rely on how fast you can push sand and how many wheels are going to help you out which will also depend on weight and engine power. 4 wheel lock in low gear is not going to help you out in high speed mud holes and sand dunes because you are stuck in low gear.

            Hi speed is where those low hanging shocks on the ZR2 will disapear. A rock will clean them from the diff like bug hitting the windshield and you have nowhere to go as you try to protect the low hanging diff by moving away from a boulder; now you have two low shock mounts to focus on….where do you go?

            Hopefully Bollinger cleans up. Nice flat flush bottom with superior clearance and better shocks too. The Jeep throne is about to be taken.

            1. Rambo Baby, good to hear from you… – – –

              After 2 glasses of GREAT BushMill’s “Red Bush” Irish whiskey, I am please too tell you:
              1) Bollinger will never “clean up” in general use**;
              2) The Wrangler will NEVER be dethroned after two days of rock crawling in the Rockies…(^_^). It can’t.
              ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsY5umMfUxg

              ** unless it converts to H2FC!
              Cheers (^_^)…

            2. LOL. Bernie when Bollinger comes out in 2019 there will be Jeeps running in all directs trying to find a rock to crawl under instead of over. You ever watch those you tube videos where the dogs kill all the rats as the farmer moves the hay. Picture Bollinger as the dog and the Jeeps are the rats. Ok!

          2. Chevy will need that front locker to make up for the lower tech 4WD system to get where the Taco will go. The Chevy had the worst approach and departure angle and worst ground clearance unless I misunderstood someone on the video. Try lifting that ZR2 without compromising those low hanging shocks. I was excited to hear the ZR2 was coming until I saw it. It’s ugly and they did nothing different to make it stand out. I do applaud the Duratracs (read this, Toyota) and give the slow hand clap to the front locker (rock crawlers everywhere rejoice) but the truck is nothing special apart from those shocks. Chevy initially led us to believe this truck would be bumping near 11” of minimal ground clearance. Well 8.6 is not 11. I hope Ford and Jeep both come out with off-road crazy trucks. I suspect they won’t but one could hope. I also think GM has shown they are dead serious about the midsize truck market so I suspect (and hope) their midsize offerings will only get better. Who knows, if my rear diff howling gets on my nerves enough I might go drive a Ranger or Scrambler. If Chevy redesigns the ZR2 I will drive another one of them. Exciting times ahead. Peace.

            1. Isnt the tacos 4×4 system just a well developed computer controlled traction control? Basically a less intrusive version of what everyone else already has so it doesnt stop forward momentum offroad? Or is there more too it than that?

              I think in a vehicle like the Rubicon, lockers are the way too go. If you are in a situation where you are lifting a tire in a rubicon then it is probably some serious terrain and needs the locker. In a truck with IFS like the Taco or ZR2, I think a locker is semi silly. It’s better than nothing but I also wouldnt want to do anything serious as I can see the IFS driveline exploding in the wrong situation.

              I’ve heard the A-trac is solid but I would rather have a torsen style diff in combination with a decent traction control system tailored to it. That way you arnt waiting for the TCS to detect slip in most situations, and then when you do get into such a hairy situation that the torsen doesnt have one wheel on the ground, any braking force will cause the torsen to send torque to the opposite wheel. It requires less intrusion from the brakes and isnt requiring that the brakes provide so much torque that it forces the open diff to switch wheels.

            2. ” Chevy initially led us to believe this truck would be bumping near 11” of minimal ground clearance. Well 8.6 is not 11.”

              The ZR2 has 8.9″ of ground clearance. The TRD Pro has 9.4″. Does not sound like a major problem to me. Look at the article from pickuptruck’s comparison, it looks like the TRD Pro’s transfer case hangs really low and there’s almost no shielding. I think I’d rather drag a shock mount across a rock than my aluminum transfer case.

          3. Another utterly dumb idea:

            What if TFLT established a “Tire Library”???
            What’s that?
            Well, if TFLT had the funds to purchase NEW OR tires for every full-size and mid-size truck in America, and mount them for either “GoldMIne Hill” or “Cliffhanger 2.0” testing, then they could re-use them, and the mileage they would accumulate would be insignificant. Problem solved: Playing field is leveled. Cost kept low.

            Whaddaya think, guys?


          4. Bernie, why should the factory offering be modified? I like seeing how well the vehicle will do with the tires that come on it. I understand what you’re saying, but seriously…we could all install power adders too, and then try the drag races again. These manufacturers know their benchmarks when they choose the tire they want.

            The Jeep runs the early version of the BFG Mud Terrain KM tires which is interesting because the KM2 has long since been available but Jeep continues to specify the earlier version. Having run KM2’s I can attest to how poor they are in winter. Great off road, and not bad on dry pavement. I cannot think of a better off-road tire, and that includes the specialty brands like Mickey Thompson and Dick Cepek. Perhaps the original KMs are better in snow, I dunno. So while I’d say the Jeep had the best tires (Duratracs are not far behind) they were also the largest. It would be interesting to know if lockers were run in the Jeep and ZR2, and which ones.

            1. I dont think they should be putting different tires on the trucks than what came stock, but at least have a semi fresh set of the stock tires so its apples to apples.

              If Toyota decides to put less aggressive tires on their truck and it does poorly compared to the other two, thats on them.

            2. I agree that Toyota’s decision to put essentially a street (or very light AT) tire on its Pro and OR models is on them. They take for granted the fact that so many mod their trucks (and they do) but tires should not be an expense we Taco owners have to bear right out of the gate. As is the ZR2 has taken it to Toyota and Toyota (of which I am a fan) has responded in its usual arrogant way and changed nothing.

            3. Troverman, The Real Jay S, and Moondog – – –

              T: “…why should the factory offering be modified? I like seeing how well the vehicle will do with the tires that come on it.”

              TRJS: “I don’t think they should be putting different tires on the trucks than what came stock…”

              MD: “I agree that Toyota’s decision to put essentially a street (or very light AT) tire on its Pro and OR models is on them.”

              Yeah, I certainly see where y’all are coming from, and that is a valid alternative argument. I guess it all boils down to whether we want to do an off-road test on OR vehicles AS RECEIVED (even with junky old street tires); or if we want to test the inherent capabilities of OR vehicles INDEPENDENT of tires, — which the largest variable and highest wear item on vehicles, other than lubricants.

              But here is one solution: why can’t TFLT do BOTH?
              Do a first run up Cliffhanger 2.0 with “as-ya- brung-it” tires, in whatever type or condition they may be; and THEN a 2nd run up Cliffhanger 2.0
              with standard OR tires from the “Tire Library”?


            4. CORRECTION:

              “..which the largest variable and highest wear item on vehicles..” should be “which ARE the largest variable and highest wear itemS on vehicles…” Sorry.


            1. Scott – – –

              S: “A tire fund…that we contribute to….. lolo…”

              Yup. it’s our website too, and they do our testing for us (^_^). Just want to pay my way….


    5. Has anyone actual heard of, or had an issue themselves, with the configuration of the shocks on the Colorado? I haven’t. It seems like the whole Ecoboost getting crud on the intake valve issue that I’ve never actually seen anyone complain about in real life.

    6. The Ecoboost carbon buildup is a real issue on the DI-only versions but it’s really dependent on the driving habits of the owner. Short trips and easy driving will cause more buildup than running them hard all the way up to redline from time to time. That buildup will damage valve guides and seals, as well has hurt performance. Carbon that builds up in the combustion chamber can result in predetonation, leading to poor performance and fuel economy if its bad enough. Evidently some guys tried to clean their e times with seafoam and enough carbon broke loose to cause turbo damage, hence why Ford insisted on replacing the heads instead of cleaning them as you would a naturally aspirated DI engine.

      The more common and expensive issue with the 3.5 is timing chain stretch. Transversely mounted 3.5 Ecoboosts (and the Duratec V6’s) have internal water pumps driven by the timing chain. So when your water pump goes bad, it either lines coolant into the engine oil, or allows the timing chain to loosen up. In the best case scenario, it’s a few grand to have it fixed, and in the worse case you’re replacing the engine after all that coolant mixes with the oil. Lots of detailed reports about engine failures due to the water pump. Silly design decision considering all the problems Chrysler had with the 2.7 V6 and its internal water pump.

      1. Yeah the media likes to overlook all the owners of Ecoboost vehicles with stretched timing chains. The numerous sources of misfires are nearly impossible to completely eliminate too. The BOV’s on the turbos are well-known failure points and are not cheap to have repaired.

        The 2.7 Ecoboost is also beginning to have serious issues with oil consumption. We’re talking well over 1 quart per 1k miles. Sounds like the issue has been identified as worn valve guides. Apparently Ford cheaped out by using steel valve guides with steel valves instead of bronze valve guides. Takes me back to the days of 6.4 Powerstrokes coming in with what sounded like a bad rocker and turned out to be wasted valve guides.
        They either have bad valve wobble from the factory or are wearing extremely fast, leading to blown valve seals. I’m sure it suffers from timing chain stretched as it has a stretchy inverted tooth timing chain like its bigger brother. I guess Ford likes all the out-of-warranty repair money that’s coming in from timing chain replacements.

        1. Brick, you’re making it sound like the world is ending. Its not…there may be isolated incidents you point out…same as with any engine from any brand…but for the most part the EcoBoosts have been proven to be good, long-lasting durable engines with little additional maintenance costs along the way. We have a 2016 2.7L EB with 30k miles on it now…it uses no oil at all between changes and is as smooth and quiet as it has been from day one. The 2.7L is actually a robustly-built engine .

          1. 30k miles isn’t evidence of reliability and I’m a Ford fan. Steel valve guides ovaling out at low mileage is a sign of a major issue. Sounds like there’s something seriously wrong with the design or tolerances on the 2.7 EcoBoost. The truck we use to haul my mustang to race tracks was a Ford 6.4 Powerstroke that developed bad valve guides. Steel on steel valve guides are a terrible idea and reeks of cost cutting.

      2. Carbon isn’t going to build up in the combustion chamber on DI engines *because* of DI. Carbon can build up on the back of the intake valves over time since there is no port injection gasoline wash to clean them. This afflicts all DI-only engine, not just EcoBoost engines. Damage to the valves, seals, or guides typically will not occur before a MIL is present and poor running condition is evident. Cylinder heads *do not need to be replaced,* that is simply not true. Ford recommends they are “removed” for cleaning but not replaced. The usual walnut shell blasting cleans them perfectly. Running Seafoam or the like could indeed loosen larger chunks of carbon and cause turbo damage. For their part, Ford insists there is zero problem with carbon buildup on DI Ecoboost engines, and was quick to point out that the switch to DI + port injection was for fuel economy, power, and emissions purposes only, not to target a carbon buildup problem. Having experience with quite a few EcoBoost vehicles, I have yet to see a problem with carbon buildup, even on vehicles with more than 100k miles.

        As for timing belt stretch, well it will occur on every vehicle with a timing chain. The chain tensioners have the job of taking up the slack. Some chain tensioner guides are not well designed and wear out, causing noise and the possibility of timing jumping a tooth or two with catastrophic results to valves and pistons. Sometimes the chains stretch to beyond the capability of the tensioning device to correct. This requires chain replacement. Regarding the water pump, the pump itself is in a sealed cavity in the engine. If the pump failed and ran at an angle on a failed bearing, it could possibly eat through the metal sealed cavity in the engine block and eventually allow coolant into the engine oil stream. Left unattended, engine failure would result. That said, coolant mixing with engine oil does not automatically cause an engine failure…this same thing happens when a head gasket fails. The situation can be fixed. And speaking of the transverse EcoBoosts…that would eliminate the vast majority of them which are sold in the longitudinal trucks.

        1. Real men keep their trucks until they drive into the ground.

          So talking about a well built engine and quoting 30k or even 100k is a joke.

          You know the measure of quality of an engine or a truck after 200 or 300 k, especially if used for towing etc.

          I wouldn’t rely on an ecoboost. Not to mention all the fuel that would run y wallet into the ground. Huh, “eco” boost. Ford’s marketing is a marvel.

        2. Ecoboost carbon buildup is a REAL thing.

          “As for timing belt stretch, well it will occur on every vehicle with a timing chain. The chain tensioners have the job of taking up the slack.”

          Of course timing chains stretch. Unfortunately Ford has decided to stick with a cheaper style of timing that is inherently prone to stretching. The 2011 F-150 Ecoboosts had a longer lasting roller style chain that worked great then suddenly in 2012 they decided to save money by going to a Morse silent chain. That cheaper chain combined with the aditional oil contamination due to the blow-by problems with the Ecoboost is a recipe for disaster in the long term. The extra fuel and carbon in the oil combined with the longer oil change intervals we have today eats the timing chain up. Where most engines need a new timing chain at 150k miles, many Ecoboosts have stretch-related issues by 75k. Tensioners can only take up so much slack.

          “Regarding the water pump, the pump itself is in a sealed cavity in the engine. If the pump failed and ran at an angle on a failed bearing, it could possibly eat through the metal sealed cavity in the engine block and eventually allow coolant into the engine oil stream.”

          A failed water pump bearing allows the shaft angle to change, reducing the effectiveness of the seal that keeps the coolant and oil separate. Not only does coolant leajbinto the oil, but the timing chain slackens up. Water in engine oil is a major problem. Sure if you catch it early you might be okay, but most people might check their engine oil every couple thousand miles. Water is a poor lubricant and your main bearings will get chewed up fast, especially when that engine is a turbocharged V6 make V8 power. That makes for a scary used market. I already watched one co-worker get burned on a used 2013 F-150 Ecoboost. Owned it less than a year and had a high pressure fuel pump fail, a turbo develop an oil seal failure, and the truck had a an unfixable shake above 70 MPH.

      3. People really like to talk about the carbon build up thing, dont they.

        Having owned an ecoboost and spending way too much time on the F150 EB forum, I havent actually heard of anyone with a carbon build up issue that had to get it worked on. I have heard of guys trying to clean them on their own while they were in there doing whatever(porting manifolds and crap like that.) There is even a guy over there with a totally stock 2011 that has 350,000 miles on it and all he has ever done is change the Throttle body and perform regular maintenance.

        I also have never heard of anyone actual attempting to use seafoam and blowing up a turbo. Its theorized that this could happen which is why Ford and everyone else recommends not to do it and no one does.

    7. The Raptor is more of an show truck for those who want to look cool. The Power Wagon is a real truck. No V6 no alumnum popcan skin

      1. Hmmm…the V6 makes significantly more horsepower and torque than the nearly twice as large Hemi V8. The aluminum pop-can won’t be a rust bucket like your Dodge after 10 years or so. And despite being a 3/4-ton “Heavy Duty” truck, the PW has a whopping 200lbs more payload capacity than the “V6 beer can.” This despite the Raptor being only a half-ton truck. I guess the difference between a “show truck” and a “real truck” is 200lbs of payload. Oh yeah, then there’s towing. The “pop can” manages 8,000lbs; the “real truck” can handle a massive 1700lbs more! Again, one is a half ton, and one is a 3/4 ton.

        Then there is off-road capability. RAM claims over 14″ of ground clearance! The Raptor claims 11.5″. But wait…the Ford is listing “minimum” ground clearance, meaning the maximum amount of clearance between the ground and the lowest hanging point on the truck, which is the rear differential. RAM is listing some other number, because since it has significantly shorter tires and a larger rear differential (plus the entire solid front axle and diff assembly)…actual minimum ground clearance would certainly be less. Want the real number? Look up a RAM 2500 pickup. Its actually about 8″ or less.

        Finally, let’s discuss all the other advantages of the “real truck” compared to the pretty boy Raptor. Well, let’s see. The PW is much slower. Like glacially slow. It uses much more fuel. It doesn’t handle as well. It is not as good looking, and doesn’t have as good of resale value. All profits when you buy one go overseas. And for now, anyway, you’re trapped in a cabin that is not nearly as safe nor nearly as advanced as the Raptor’s.

        But feel free to enjoy your “real truck.”

    8. I have to agree with Nathan on the therapy. There is no no better therapy except maybe when I am blowing up propane tanks with Weatherby 338-378. But anyone who needs therapy make sure they have something reliable, pick a Rubicon or a Tacoma.

    9. Well it’s a good thing the jeep doesn’t need ‘super high tech’ 4wd systems and only had an old school solid axle true 4wd. It might not have made it up lol.

      1. The Jeep’s success is simply. Approach, departure, ground clearance, weight distribution, shorter wheelbase, tires, and the list goes on.

          1. Jeeps haven’t had too much trouble getting around in the woods, Rambro, despite being saddled with diffs and standard suspensions…

            1. When your diff is hung up in a mudhole or high centered at speed and cracks open like an egg you will think differently when you have other options available in 2020

      2. They also use a much more rugged drivetrain if you buy a Rubicon. As somebody above already mentioned, the Tacoma’s rear diff is very fragile and prone to pinion deflection. Toyota went with a high-pinion setup for ground clearance at the expense of durability. The Jeep is a tough, tried and true offroad platform with a massive aftermarket and a community that’s second to none. Stick with a Rubicon and you’re GTG.

        1. Brick…while I agree on the Jeep…Toyota’s have a pretty good rep for reliability and probably have the second best aftermarket support for off-road in the world. And besides, all the terrorists use them in the 3rd world!

        2. Yeah the Tacoma’s rear diff is a very poor setup. They wanted max clearance at the expense of strength. High pinion, reverse cut gears, 8″ ring gear with a short 3.909 or 4.30 ratio. Not only is the pinion being pushed away from the ring gear, the teeth are much thinner due to the ratio vs ring size. It’s never been a surprise to me that so many Tacomas with oversized tires rip teeth off the ring gear.

    10. TFL CREW
      Thanks for another funny and well thought out video. And I have to say (again) that the quality of your videos is very good and getting better all the time. The scenery out there is beautiful and I’m glad you took the time to show us, because I believe that most people that go off roading enjoy the solitude and the views from the overlooks, almost as much as the ride itself, I know I do!

    11. Hey, TFLT

      Do you use automatic tire deflators, inflatores

      I’ve heard of them but He never seen or used one.

      Maybe you could put the word out to some 4×4 accessorystores and do a review of them.

      It seems as they should be a great help at a small cost,affordable by most people.

      Going onto the beach people spend a great deal of time airing down and inflating 6 tires on a dually and another 4 or 6 on their trailer.

      1. No. The truck industry has gone for a sht. Ive been saying so since 2004 but everyone else lives in lala world with different shades of cow hide and paint colors. And its the best selling market and yet the SUVs and cars get all the good stuff. Unlimited options in the SUV world.

      2. My last truck was a 2011 Z71 reg cab/short box/4×4. If your favorite dealer doesn’t have one,you can order it.Easy as pie if that’s what you want.

        1. Not a 2017-2018 Lochief. That pie has been on the window sill for too long, its gone bad for those who want new. The Tundras looked really awsome in regular cab shortbeds and you could supercharge them with 4×4 with full warranty. Walk all over a Jeep and run circles around a Raptor.

      3. Buddy I had a Chevy Short Bed regular cab. They are hard to find but you can find them if you look hard enough. My dad got a new GMC regular cab 4×4 two years ago.

    12. Not into 4 Wheeling, but looking at the video the Jeep just seem to make it easy to do that. Not much else to disgust here.
      For towing the Jeep is not as capable as the other 2.

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