• Old vs New: Is the New Ford Raptor Really Better Off-Road? (Video)

    2017 ford raptor svt v8 cliffhanger trail
    2017 Ford Raptor vs 2014 SVT Raptor on Cliffhanger 2.0

    The second generation Ford Raptor is more powerful, lighter, quicker, and more technologically advanced when compared to the original. Is the 2017 Ford Raptor really better off-road than a first-generation SVT Raptor? This question is difficult to answer, and we attempt it by putting both trucks on our Rocky Mountain Cliffhanger 2.0 off-road trail.

    This comparison is ideal in terms of tire selection. We recently upgraded our 2014 SVT Raptor with BFGoodrich KO2 TA tires. The 2017 Raptor comes equipped with KO2 tires as well. On the flip side, we are comparing a 2014 crew cab against the 2017 extended cab, so it’s not a true apple-to-apples matchup – if there is ever such a thing in the off-road world.

    We are running a very steep Cliffhanger 2.0 trail (around 10,000 feet above sea level) that has a “truth or dare” route choice. The reality of real-world off-road testing is that the trail changes after each vehicle makes a pass. A rock gets flipped or turned, a washed out area gets deeper, etc.

    How do the truck perform? Check out the video below.

    Ford Raptor Specifications Comparison

    1st-Gen 2014 SVT Raptor 2nd-Gen 2017 Raptor
    Super Crew 6.2L V8 Super Crew 3.5L V6
    Curb Weight (lbs) 6,203 5,694
    Ground Clearance (in) 11.2 11.5
    Wheelbase (in) 145.2 146.0
    Width (in) 86.3 86.3
    Approach Angle (deg) 29.8 30.2
    Departure Angle (deg) 22.85 23.0
    Breakover Angle (deg) n/a 21.8
    Shocks 2.5-in FOX Shox 3.0-in FOX Shox
    4×4 System Hi/Lo transfer case, rear locker, TORSEN front differential

    (note: specifications are according to Ford).

    Join the off-road fun in the video below.

    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov is an Automotive Enthusiast, Producer, Reviewer, Videographer, Writer, Software Engineer, Husband, Father, and Friend.

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    119 thoughts on “Old vs New: Is the New Ford Raptor Really Better Off-Road? (Video)

    1. The shorter cab model is much less popular, and you can already see everyone scraping the bottom of that long wheelbase model all up and down the mountain on those rocks. Ford knows how bad the wheelbase drags on thee Raptors, so they sent the short unpopular model to TFL for this test. That is why they are quickly coming out with a Raptor Ranger to fix their too big problem. Till then, nobody dare put anything but a driver in the Raptor. Trucks are for carrying things while off-roading. What losers driver up the mountain by themselves and not carrying anything in their truck?

        1. He’s talking about the bad Raptor wheelbase, not breakover, Daniel. You are trying to change the subject.

          1. You do realize that breakover angle is calculated using ground clearance and wheelbase right? You can’t talk about one without the other? When two things are inextricably linked, then it’s called a discussion not changing the subject

            1. Daniel, you aren’t going to win an argument trying to convince people that the Raptor is a capable off-roader. If you want to look at the wheelbase holistically, you also have to take in account the extremely soft suspension travel of the Raptor and the unusually long wheelbase. Multiply those factors, and this is not an off-road machine. Not to mention its heavy weight and extreme width.

            2. Rob – Please list 1/2 ton competitors that do it better?

              Or are you simply stating the 1/2 ton trucks cannot be a capable off-roader?

              Of the many types of non-paved terrains to be found in the world, on which are you basing this claim?

            3. Rob – wtf?

              If the Raptor is so bad off-road, why is it winning so many off-road awards? Including from TFL? If you don’t trust TFL, why are you here commenting?

              I drive a Toyota. I want a Ram. I have no dog in this fight. But it looks to me like Daniel is actually making a logical argument and you’re sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring published data on payload capacity and results from real world off-road reviews from multiple publications. If someone has an agenda here, it appears to be you.

            4. I’d like to hear Rob’s response. However-I fully agree that a full size truck in general is not the best option for an off-road super truck. Would be great to see a Ranger sized off-road brute. Heat things up in the ZR2 class of trucks!

            5. The First gen raptor did a pretty d@@ good job in Moab for a stock vehicle. I can’t think of many stock vehicles that’s could keep up. So I’d consider it a pretty proficient off roader!
              As for the capability who cares if it has the same cargo capacity as a mid size. Do midsize trucks offer the same interior room?? Do mid size trucks fit a couch, a sheet of plywood or a ton (ok half ton) of camping gear?? It’s still more “capable” in a lot of ways than a midsize!

        2. The Raptor is not a 1/2 ton. It can’t compare on payload. It is a compact truck capability with a very wide and long stance. It can’t eve compare to a midsize pickup.

          1. Steve R. it carries near identical payload ratings to some configurations of the ram 1500. Is the ram 1500 not a 1/2 ton truck then?

            Do you realize how many pounds “1/2 a ton” is?

            1. Raptor payload is 1000 – 1200 lbs depending on configuration.
              Ram payload is as low as 1250 on certain models.

              Both can carry a “1/2 ton” or more…

            2. The Ram half ton has a suspension that keeps the truck and load from crashing into the ground. You still don’t get it.

            3. Rob – So… your saying a 1200 lb rating on x-brand is more capable than a 1200 lb rating on y-brand?

              Or are you arguing that a stiffer, less compliant suspension is preferable off-road?

            4. Raptor payload is 600 -1200, not 1000-1200. Get it straight, Daniel. This is why you have lost all credibility with many of us on this site who have a discerning eye.

            5. On a pickup truck, yes. On a jeep, maybe not. Hey, Daniel, you there might be hope you you yet. Are you starting to understand? I’ll give you a hint. The words PICKUP TRUCK might help.

            6. Daniel, if you find out that there are Raptors from the factory that only have 600 lbs payload, will you promise never to comment on tfl again and save us from untruths? The real funny thing is that the same link you gave above actually proves that some Raptors are 600 lbs payload. Read teh whole page! Ha.

            7. Mike, you are looking at “tongue load”. That is not the same thing as “payload”

              Rob, you need to decide what you are basing things on. Jeep has nothing to do with pickup truck. Off-pavement capability improves with suspension compliance provided you have traction aids (ie locker) to transmit torque to the wheels with the most contact pressure. This holds true for any 4+wheeled vehicle. Would you argue with that?

            8. Funny, Daniel is the only commenting here who really seems to have anything intelligent to say. Seems he is the only one who has any credibility to be lost.

        3. reg cab silverado 2wd has 24.4 degree, 4wd 24.1 degree breakover. With damn near double the payload. stock approach angle sucks balls though.

            1. high payload is not going to ride nearly as nice. Raptor is purpose built and it’s really good for it’s purpose. I’ll say it is the standard rule that will get measured against.

    2. ***Let’s have a vote for a new rule.

      If a post contains the words: trash, garbage, junk, pos, or a half dozen other similar words… then it should simply be deleted by the moderators.

      Posts like that add nothing to the quality of the site, encourage childish arguments rather than intelligent discussion, are often made by a single individual with multiple names, and are uncalled for.

      Let’s see some replys with either a “yay” or “nay” to this new rule

      1. Here come the socialists wanting to control everyone. I’ll take freedom, thank you.
        And where is there a post on this article saying trash, garbage or junk? There is no comment with that in it on this page! But if something is trash, garbage or junk, I am glad I live in America where I can express that.

        1. ***Let’s have a vote for a new rule.

          IF we have a known self-expressed communist, control freak with a name that contains the word “Daniel”, then TFL will block all future posts. He gives the name Dan a bad name.

        2. Exactly, if you have a problem with something, share it. I don’t like the way xyz sounds, I think it looks funny, fuel economy is poor, NVH is terrible… etc etc etc.

          Saying xyz is trash garbage or junk is ignorance.

      2. i usually find daniel’s comments to be opposite of intelligent. i am glad to have learned the strengths and weaknesses of trucks on this website from the commenters. people usually don’t usually just say something is junk, they also include intelligent reasons why. and some say why not. that is good debate. exactly why I come to this site. that’s why i don’t want a big brother like daniel.

        1. And the forums are being filled with useless posts of “junk, trash, garbage” etc. We want the same thing, intelligent discussion of things good and bad.

    3. The problem, Daniel, is that you are most often incorrect and seem to have an agenda rather than truth on your side. And now you want to shut people down. Not cool.

      1. Do you enjoy the brand bashing comments? Someone sharing a bad experience is great and adds to the site, a blanket claim of “xyz brand is junk” helps no one.

        1. But sometimes a part or even whole vehicle is junk. And that needs to be told to the public. Especially when it is advertised otherwise or gives off an impression otherwise.

          1. Absolutely, a part of a vehicle can have flaws. There hasn’t been a vehicle produced in the last 30 years that could legitimately be considered “junk”

            1. No junk car built in that last 30 years, Daniel? You have not been paying attention.
              * Mazda MPV (1989-99)
              * Oldsmobile Alero (1999-04)
              * Cadillac Catera (1997-01)
              * Jaguar X-Type (2002-08)
              * 2000-02 duramax injectors(expensive),
              Ford 6.0 diesel.
              *2014-15 Focus and trannies.

            2. Chris, you got me. The Catera was pretty bad. Not junk by any means, but not worth maintaining

          2. I think Daniels point is that there are many posters who simply apply a blanket statement that XYZ is junk-just because it is not their favorite brand or they have had a bad experience with one aspect of it. Certainly sharing specifics as to what one feels is a deficient attribute is helpful but to blindly assign a label of junk because a vehicle is not your brand of favor weakens the usefulness of the comment site. I don’t get the impression that Daniel is trying to limit this helpful sharing of problems we experience with vehicles. Every brand has its flaws as well as their strengths. If they were so bad they would cease to exists-as many have.

            1. Sparky and others: I have read every single comment on this page, and no one just made a blanket statement that the Raptor is junk without a logical presentation that is helpful to the reader. Tell us which comment you are talking about? It seems there are several oversensitive Raptor owners on this site. That kind of makes psychological sense, since Raptors are purchased usually by the kind of person that is very oversensitive about image, rather than usefulness.

            2. Dale H. This site has been devolving over the past few months into comments full of negative blanket statements that degrade the site. This was in reference to the trend, not to this particular page

            3. I like this sites comments because people are real thinkers with something valuable to say rather than marketing speech. So many sites are just a waste of time having to hear what the advertising people have to cover up. Its funny how there are basically two kinds of people commenting. Those who make real observations, and those that own the particular car being highlighted on that particular page. The owners sometimes have good things to say, but usually are just trying to make themselves look good 🙂 People are funny.

            4. I do agree that overall the comments on this site are several cuts above the other truck site.

    4. I have a question for all the new guys.

      If a raptor is junk, what vehicle is empirically better?

      1. Crickets.
        What truck actually performs better off road?
        Ford is not my brand of choice, but I have to admit it is an impressive truck. I feel that a midsize (or compact-if they still exsisted) would be a superior choice but until the ZR2 (or up coming Ranger?) hits the level of offroad prowless I think the Raptor remains (offroad) king.

        1. Thank you for that response. I agree that for trail use, any full size is too big. My point is that the Raptor is currently the best overall off road truck. Its not the best at crawling (power wagon), tight trails (ZR2), but has way more power, suspension, and the overall package is hard to beat. Each truck is built for a specific purpose and really weren’t meant to compete with each other.

          Its refreshing to read a comment that is original, insightful, and constructive.

          1. The Raptor is not just full sized, it is six inches wider than full size. So it really is not fit for off-road. Not to mention the on-road problems they give all of us.

            1. Is every off-road course limited by the width of the vehicle? No. There are various types of off-roading a Raptor is well suited for. But I get the feeling that you don’t want to make the distinction.

            2. No one would say EVERY off-road course is limited by the width of a vehicle. But most certainly are.

            3. Tight mountain trails are about the only thing the Raptor is not well suited for. Sand – great. Mud – great with proper tires. Farm/fire roads – great. Rocks – the long wheel base helps on climbs, it’s as capable as anything but the power wagon.

              Conclusion: it’s pretty darn good on pavement and it’s better than most in a wide variety of terrains.

              And if 3″ more width per side are the end of the world for you… yeah I don’t know what to say…

            4. 6 inches is a problem for all of us on road? Speak for yourself. I guess a dually is just shy of Armageddon. Good grief what a useless comment.

              Width adds stability so its beneficial in many respects off road. I guess the military thought so when they spec’d the Humvee. You know most lifted off road vehicles use wheel spacers and different rim backspacing to clear tires and add stability.

              All vehicle designs are a compromise, and your comment displays content ignorance.

            5. Hey Dan,
              These were tight mountain trails and also the toughest that TFL tests on and both Raptor’s went up the Cliffhanger Dare easier than anything else I’ve seen tested!

              Of course there are narrower trails out there, but for this thread and comment section about this trail and offloading, the Raptor’s reign supreme!

              Your negative comments are worthless!!!

    5. All vehicles, unless in the very narrow case that you are unloaded and on a very wide and smooth road or dune and you don’t care that your expensive vehicle will break down after 100,000 miles. Then the Raptor is great!

      1. Is this an attempt to say the raptor is unreliable? The truck is over built in almost every front so I would hope not. I know of a few on the forums with over 200k needing nothing more then routine maintance.

        1. Anyone with a Raptor over 200,000 miles are using it as a highway Cadilac. Which is all it is good for, if you don’t care about your money or looking like a metro.

        2. Overbuilt? You’ve been hypnotized by Ford marketers. The Raptor has problems with bent frames. They are Tonka Toys. Remember Ford’s Tonka Toy F-150 they had on display as a concept? That’s exactly Ford’s level of mentality and that of those who buy them.

          1. That was the first Gen Raptors NOT the new ones. Dontmake generalized statements about something when you know issues have been rectified

        1. You are a big boy now Will, you can look it up yourself easily on easy matters like this. Its called the internet.

          1. The point is he’s making claims that the vehicle is unreliable without any collaborating evidence/examples. I’m sure every one of us is capable of looking up things on the internet. It appears however that not all of us are capable of backing up somewhat absurd claims.

    6. When you do comparisons you leave out the ‘confidence’ factor. When you are driving someone else’ $80,000 truck, you naturally won’t flog it as you would a used sub $10000 vehicle so when you compare old vs new that is something you should at least mention.

    7. Ok everyone if the raptor sucks at off-roading then why did it win tfltruck.com off-roading truck of the year, and pickuptruck.com off-roading truck of the year, and four wheeling magazine off-roading truck of the year, and have you seen the motor trend video with the 2017 raptor just a bunch of butthurt Chevy, Toyota, and ram fans.

      1. Raptor wins off-road vehicle of the year because a bunch of city boys are playing with them at their employer’s expense and not once do they load them down with payload and towing while doing so to actually use them as a truck. They are car journalists, what do you expect? They are one step up from being children. That said, I do appreciate that TFL takes is an extra step beyond their competitors usually to give us at least some sense of differences in comparison. I am sure many would really appreciate them taking it to the next step and max out the towing and payload while off-roading, but maybe C.R. would be the only ones in a position to do that since they own their vehicles. Come, on C.R..

        1. Ok, do as you say, run a comparison, 1000 lbs payload and 6000 lbs towing up gold mine hill. Which vehicle(s) do you predict will out perform the Raptor and Powerwagon?

          Run the same test in the open desert. How do you predict the finishing order?

          Try it in Florida mud…

          I’d love to hear your predictions

          1. Its a non-starter. The Raptor cannot do that. A 6000 lb trailer has 600 to 1200 lb tongue weight and that alone would put its belly on the ground without rocks, even with no driver and fuel. Last time I checked, the Raptor needs a driver and a whole lot of fuel. Of course, the PowerWagon has a much better chance, but even then, you are better off with a normal half-ton or HD that are built to actually do work.

      2. It won on putc because it had two extra tow hooks and putc turned a blind eye to the PWs winch and articulation because those are not off road worthy components like a tow hook is.

    8. Please see the link below for Raptor payload capacity. It is 1000 pounds for the Supercab and 1200 for the Supercrew. You will find this on page 31 of the F-150 brochure. For those who like math, that’s enough for two dirt bikes in the back, a father and son, and all their gear. A Suzuki RM 125 weighs in at 192 pounds and a 250 weighs in at 218. That is what the truck is built for.

      1. Payload is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER found on the web. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS look on the door jam of your specific truck before loading your vehicle.

        1. I understand that but as an FYI, I have never had my payload be any different than what was printed on the brochure for the EXACT same vehicle. Not once. The biggest issue is that most people don’t know what exact model they have and this is what started the “look on the door jamb” mentality. For the Raptor it is really simple. You have a crew or a super cab. That’s it. One is 1,000 and the other is 1200.

          1. Oooh, not true. I have seen RAptors at the sand hills near our town that have widely varying payload numbers inside the door. Also, many of them are customized as people do with these things, and that further drops the payload ratings. I must say, more often than not, they are overloaded. Some Tacos are overloaded as well. Be safe out there people.

            1. Every single one I have seen for 2017 and that has been many have been the same. Are you seeing 2017s with different payloads? I seriously have not seen a single one. Wow…

      2. Oh my ” “. Please don’t ever tell the dumbed down public to look in marketing material to find the payload of a vehicle. Way too many people overload their vehicles on our roads.

    9. Thanks for this video, TFL. Great to see the two Raptors side by side. They both seemed to handle this climb with relative ease. I think the new truck is a little better looking, but I do like the V8 tone.

    10. I remember Blue Beard lost to Big Green on Gold Mine Hill in the snow. I wonder if the new one would do better, and which mode you’d use? Sand and mud? I’d definitely take the turbo engine up there. A little whirl sound and you pull away from that old rumbly v8.

    11. I have to say Raptor VS Raptor on 2.0 was very cool, very easy but the title was good. I hate side steps. Hopefully the TRX with a new Air suspension and maybe electronic ride control shocks will solve the payload and off road grey area. At least with the current Ram with the Air ride does not lose any body clearance if it is loaded with gear and off roading, it will maintain a level truck with no sag and provide adjustable ride heights.

      1. I would like to see some sort of setup like that to give you the best of both worlds. Seems like that would be doable for something in that price range. It has the frame and drivetrain-make that suspension adaptable to match. They could even de-tune the engine when in this “towing mode”-if that is a concern.

        1. Im just learning from Zviera that we have had pneumatic suspension since 1954 available on cheap Peugot cars all the way to Rolls Royce, used on tanks and cargo vans. This suspension allows you big payload with load levelling and has a softer ride than a Raptor. Why is this not on a US truck you will ask, likely because the old manufacturers continue to sell junk at a premium because we dont know any better.

            1. Citroen is not known as being the most reliable brand. They are the 13th most reliable brand in the U.K. We all know how reliable British cars are….😂

            2. So I guess Ford with their leaf springs being the 18th most unreliable brand has served them well.

            3. Ford trucks are quite reliable but their cars are dragging them down – not the that that’s a big secret. Ford is a truck maker that now happens to make cars. There is no point for me to argue here because I doubt very seriously Citroen knows something that the rest of the entire car world doesn’t. I had rather be last in quality in the US market than 13th in a market known for terribly unreliable cars. Ram is number 29 by the same list you cited (dead last) so I guess that means coil springs are better by that logic… There is room for improvement but costs and reliability will play a factor in us getting that improvement. I would love to not have to clean out squeaky coil springs after a serious off roading venture so by all means get someone to do something better. It is easy to Google and find something and make an argument for it but off road experience is a great but not always kind teacher and it is very clear on this website who the talkers are and who the walkers are. I wheel. It is clear on here who doesn’t. Peace.

            4. BTW, Rambro, I wish someone would explore an affordable alternative for the NA market. Leafs work but they have their issues too. They break and squeak but for now they are our best option. I hope the market goes forward soon. I think electric is coming too – faster than ever imagined and if for no other reason than market fear. One manufacturer fears getting left behind by another so everyone will march forward until it either works or fails. Keep the comments coming, my friend. 🙂

            5. Moondog, theres a guy named Jay Leno that backs Citroen and the hydropneumatic suspension from top to bottom. I think Jay knows a thing or two about cars.


              Its also used on military tanks, saved the French president after the car was sprayed with 140 bullets and still drove away. Rally cars use it. Everything about it is an advantage. Quadsteer was an advantage. Yes it may cost more but not always and if cost was a problem or simplicity was needed then why 10 cameras, why plush leathers and dvd players, why all the infotainment tech that I never use that rarely works properly when it is used, why are we looking at trucks that range from 20-80 thousand dollars and we still have 60 thousand dollars of 2000 year old garbage as options. Have diffs miraculously lifter higher than 1/2 the tire size minus 1/2 the diffs radius. Are we still driving off road HD packages with 18 degree approach angles, are we still driving off road packages that cant haul, are we still driving trucks that are too long to comfortably park because of the loss of quadsteer, do we even have something as useful and easy as an electronic shock. If you answered no to any of these questions you would be correct. And like Dan said in the previous post. A lot of these options can be offered for cheaper than what we pay now for the long overdue crap we have to pay for now.

            6. Its funny you say leafs are the best we got but I can recall when leafs on all my older model trucks would break, either by fracture or just worn out and sraightened. Also my dad a few months back had a piece of his leaf fracture and it somehow punctured his rear tire. The only way this could have happened is if he was braking hard and the piece slid off and tavelled faster than the vehicle just enough to get under the rear tire and then on top of that managed to flip right so as to puncture the tire as well. Leaving work today, I heard a co-worker telling a mechanic that his leaf spring is broke. Leaf springs dont hold up where I live and they damage the rest of the vehicle from the constant pounding. Imagine hydropneumatic suspension, better than any other suspension built today and that comes from Jay Leno, imagine the rest of the parts in the vehicle that now do not have to put up with the abuse that comes from a leaf sprung vehicle that sends chills and shutters theoughout the vehicle by comparison.

            7. I’m saying leafs right now at this day and time are the most reliable off road suspensions but would welcome a more reliable, more effective, and more affordable alternative. I hope it gets here soon. This may be it but it doesn’t matter because we can’t have it on a new truck under warranty. Jay Leno is a car guy for sure but he is NOT an off road guy. He also has a little more money than most of us so he can buy whatever he wants. I can buy (for the most part) what I want as well but won’t because I’m tight. 😉

            8. @Moondog. I think you are belittled a bit Moondog, from lack of knowledge about hydro pneumatic suspension, I know I am. I don’t believe you know much about Jay Leno and certainly you cannot say he is not an off road guy, which backs my statement. You can get all of this from a simple search on the net. He owns the craziest of off road rigs, he is reported to do all the work himself, lives and breathes cars and trucks and races them, from monster rigs, rally cars to drag strips to oval tracks and beyond. Yes he has money which gives him the ability to do nothing but exist around vehicles and he backs Citreon and the hydro pneumatic suspension as being the best suspension system to ever exist and backs the Citreon brand. The same thing happened to quadrasteer in my opinion, it is lack of knowledge, and poor advertising and I mean the worst advertising exists in the auto industry. You state;

              “I’m saying leafs right now at this day and time are the most reliable off road suspensions but would welcome a more reliable, more effective, and more affordable alternative.”

              Ok then, will you give up power windows and brakes for something more simple and reliable.? Do you not realize how much more reliable a vehicle would be with a suspension that is superior to leaf springs. Do you know what happens to HD trucks when they off road? They rattle themselves apart at an exponential rate and components break. A suspension like hydro pneumatic will protect a truck better, give the driver added comfort, allow load leveling and increased body clearance even when off roading with a loaded truck and allow increased payloads, but I guess that is too much to ask because it only came out in 1953, and you just learned about it yesterday and somehow you are an expert over Jay Leno who actually owns one and has no shareholders to impress. C’mon man. How much off roading can you do with a Raptor with 1200 lbs of people and gear in the truck, its going to sag and bottom out on everything, likely kill a lot of snakes, what kind of trailer can you now pull with the truck, but I guess this doesn’t matter as long as you have simple leaf springs that eventually break anyways, corrode and rattle the vehicle enough to break other components; than that is a good thing?. Let me know when the sun penetrates that cave. I know what Jay Leno is saying in that video, that I posted and I back him on it. The same thing happened to quadrasteer, poor advertising and lack of consumer’s knowledge.
              I bet I could buy an F150 FX4 with quadsteer and the Citreon suspension in an XLT trim for cheaper than a Platinum model loaded with fluff. Even the cheap Peugot cars had this suspension so it is not expensive in my opinion based on that logic.

            9. @Moondog
              “Citroen is not known as being the most reliable brand. They are the 13th most reliable brand in the U.K. We all know how reliable British cars are….”
              Rolls Royce is licencing hydropneumatic suspension from Citroen. I guess they should use leafs, because they are more reliable by your point of view. LOL.

            10. That suspension design is great but also has many drawbacks, primarily maintenance. I did some research and fluid development took time and caused many headaches for owners as weaknesses in the fluids manifested themselves. According to the article, the current weakness is dust intrusion requiring the owner to stay on top of filter changes. Expensive and regular maintenance is a part of life for MB owners but the Big 3 have to struggle with doing their best to make their vehicles “idiot proof”, excuse the term. It’s not that owners are
              “idiots”, it’s a question of knowledge and training. That there is a tough nut to crack. I think quadra-steer was an amazing offering but the education campaign fell short. It will return eventually.
              Four wheel independent suspension and four wheel steer on a pickup would instantly make it class leading on many fronts, but no automaker wants to handi-cap themselves with a vehicle that’s $4-5000 more expensive to produce in base trim than the rest of the market.

            11. @Daniel
              Yes, it’s more complex. It’s not a problem to do that reliable an maintenance free for 60 000 miles or 100 000 kms. Exactly like let’s say transmission fluid change.
              It could have a diagnostic software to tell, if some component needs to be replaced preventively , based on road quality and strokes handled. Easily in 21st century with sensors everywhere. I would give up one of ten cameras for this.
              I think, that people don’t know, what luxury means.
              Everyone should drive a Citroen for test drive, to see what luxury means and what he is missing in his $85,000 truck.

            12. @Daniel the drawbacks outweigh the maintenance otherwise why maintain power steering, brakes, windows which can all be controlled by the same system by the way. So if you already have powered brakes you can use the same system to run the suspension you just use the specified mineral oil and voila, so the added maintenance can’t be that bad. So take away all the maintenance on DVD players and camera’s as well along with moonroofs that leak and why add anything at all at this point. The advantages surely outweigh the maintenance in this case. Jeeses man, we are talking ground clearance, payload and towing JFC….that is what we strive for in a truck and these shocks will give that to a truck so give me the added maintenance any day, I will take it.

            13. @Rambro – The demands of a passenger car where it has primarily been used are different from that of a truck. Yes, it’s been used in tanks and other vehicles, but those have specific maintenance intervals that are carefully followed. And military vehicles aren’t always known for reliability.

              And by the way, this technology doesn’t directly affect ground clearance, payload, or towing. It also requires front and rear sway bars that leaf sprung vehicles do not require (though street performance can be improved with them)

            14. @Daniel, did you not see how high the car was off the ground, higher than any stock truck or more than most of them.

              Fact is the auto industry is doomed, due to lack of knowledge. Met a GM salesman 3 days ago and he told me to go buy a 2500 Diesel because he saw me with 1800lbs of bricks in my Tacoma LOL. He said that, that is what he drives and it has 950HP. I said wow so you modified it. He said no it comes stock like that. I said you mean 910 Torque and he said no its 900HP. I said they don’t make that, it is 910 Torque and he said well that’s the same thing. You see even the salesman are dumbfounded, most of them I meet don’t have a clue about what models or options exist within their own brand.

              There are some on this site who argue that trucks don’t need 4×4 and that it is just extra maintenance. Its a losing battle. All downhill. Hopefully Bollinger brings something new to the plate.

              You are acting like I am asking Paris Hilton to go turn the soil in the fields behind an OX at 4am and milk the cows. This suspension has serious advantages just like quadrasteer had. Many buyers want those advantages, anything can be made reliable even in a truck, its just lack of knowledge and publicity in order to sale the product properly.

              Dealers should have drive through testing grounds because half the battle is going in and wasting time with a salesman and people don’t want that. Many just want a quick test drive. They do this with ATV and snowmobiles. Sometimes I just want to walk into a dealership and test drive something, why not have a guy set up where that’s all he does. Hands you the keys, takes your licence scans it and you go, come back and leave. The salesman usually gives you bias information anyway and usually knows less than an informed consumer. Waste of my time. Troverman on the other hand knows his sht, even though I don’t agree with him. LOL

          1. Not enough demand I guess. Its been around for a long time. Air bags have been prevalent in the rear suspension of semis for 20+ years.

            1. No money to pay for licence to Citroen, no mechanics to maintain properly in US.
              No demand, because of uninformed customers.
              Hydropneumatic suspension is not the same as airbags, but with right electronically controlled shock absorber combination is going to be close.
              RAM is working on a second generation of it and it’s going to be option for new RAM 1500 produced early 2018 as a 2019 model.
              6 more month to wait for TFL to do proper testing.

        2. I think traditional leaf springs coupled with factory air bags would be great. Load adjustable and if a bag pops, your not left beside the road. On board air would allow for auto leveling and different modes that seem to be so popular now.

    12. Andre
      To answer your question. ” is the new raptor better than the old”. I would have to say, on this video no! What I can say is that they both did great and made the hill look easy. So if you want to see which is better off-road. You need to find a tougher test.

    13. What percentage of F-150 trucks are Raptors? Don’t most F-150 buyers use them for pulling or hauling things as well as daily transportation? We need more analysis of common function.

      1. Jerry, this has always been the $64,000 question. Not only for the Raptor but also formteucks like the Power Wagon. I don’t think we will ever see these numbers broken down any more than they are because it would just open up another can for sales supremacy purposes. We can wish but I don’t think it will happen. Peace.

    14. Nice to see a comparison of the gen one vs gen two Raptors. Unfortunately I will never own one as I can’t see spending over 50K on a pickup. Yesterday I drove 300 miles with 1300 LBS in the bed of my 2008 v8 Titan with 173K miles on it. It’s my DD and I need a work truck. When this one dies I’m not sure what to buy as I don’t really care for the look of the new Titan. GM has those square wheel wells, nope, Ram has quality issues ive read. Not a fan of Ford because there everywhere. So Toyota will you please update your Tundra so I can at least look your way…

    15. Roman and Andre – – –

      Great video. Enjoyed it.

      Both Raptors did well, — for full-size (and larger) pickups. No, they are not Jeep Wranglers, nor were they meant to be. (My 2007 2-door Wrangler could “walk” up Cliffhanger 2.0 like it wasn’t even there, — but that’s what it was designed for. But for hauling or towing even modest things, forget it!)

      Hey guys, I hope I am not out of bounds, but let’s make sure that we can keep the comments section at TFLTruck a bit upscale, objective, and respectful, — WHILE still being honest and unafraid to make controversial, frank comments that may disagree. I realize that’s a bit of a trick, a challenge, and we may often fail (I do), — but I’d sure hate to see this comments section degenerate into snarky brand-loyalty “shots”, personal attacks, and bickering, — like some other websites. If it is treated more like a “forum”, then we can help each other with valid perspectives, experiences, and information, — and support the TFL staff better as well. Forgive me if this sounds a bit “preachy”….


    16. I think the stalwarts here do a good job of steering the conversation back to something more reasonable. We are seeing more personal attacks and if it gets nasty then there could be a need for a moderator. At this time we tend to reel in the silly stuff by peer pressure alone. We will never be rid of the brand loyalty and shouldn’t want to. The agendas behind the loyalty (Big 3 employees, etc.) could be watched more closely but for those of us that have been on here a while, we know who they are and respond accordingly. BTW, my name really is Moondog (long time nickname). Take care and keep the comments rolling….Peace.

      1. Problem is most of the stalwarts here are Ford owners and worse yet, Ford mechanics and dealers etc.

        And they generally don’t like the truth about Ford by many of us independent consumers.

    17. The view from on top is pretty spectacular. I think you guys go up 2.0 cliffhanger just to look out across.
      Good video.
      I like the new raptor color.

      1. Nice observation, Marc, the first thing I said was “man, that color looks great” on that truck. I wouldn’t buy it because it would be so hard to care for but it’s so nice.

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