• Should Ford Build a Ford F-250 “Highboy” or “Super Raptor” Off-Road Truck? (Poll)


    Remember the Ford F-250 “Highboy” from the 1970s? The term “Highboy” was a nickname given to factory-lifted Ford F-250 4×4 trucks manufactured before 1977.5. These were off-road focused pickups with a “divorced” (not attached to the transmission) transfer case that allowed for better driveshaft alignment in off-road situations with maximum articulation.

    Off-road pickup trucks are all the rage now. The 2017 Ford Raptor, 2017 Ram Power Wagon, and the upcoming 2017 Chevy Colorado ZR2 are very popular. Why not build and sell a specialized “Highboy” or “Super Raptor” version of the new Ford Super Duty? It sounds like a simple question, but execution of such a vehicle is complicated and would require a significant investment. This is why we decided to publish a poll and get your feedback on whether a Ford Super Duty high performance off-roader is wanted.

    1977 ford f250 4x4 highboy super duty
    Ford brochure (ford-trucks.com)

    What about the Ford Super Duty FX4? The existing FX4 off-road package already makes for a capable Ford Super Duty off-roader. The FX4 package includes Rancho off-road tuned shocks, skid plates, locking rear differential, and hill descent system. This is true, but it does not provide added ground clearance, extra power, or the tough off-road attitude.

    Watch the 2017 Ford F-250 crew cab 4×4 FX4 tackle a short off-road course (built by Ford).

    Perhaps, a “Super Raptor” or a “Highboy” version of the Super Duty can add lockers (front and rear), aggressive style with specialty bumpers, wheel flares, tires, and perhaps a winch? What do you think? Use the poll and the comments section below to let us know your thoughts.

    Here is a 2017 Ford Super Duty “Shockzilla” show truck, shown at the 2016 SEMA show in Las Vegas, NV.

    Thank you for the feedback!


    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov is an Automotive Enthusiast, Producer, Reviewer, Videographer, Writer, Software Engineer, Husband, Father, and Friend.

    153 thoughts on “Should Ford Build a Ford F-250 “Highboy” or “Super Raptor” Off-Road Truck? (Poll)

    1. Yes- Raptor sales have been hot since the initial roll-out. The Power Wagon? Not so much. You run into stability and braking issues with larger tires, that force reduced GVW. Springs soft enough to fle well also don’t like to carry 2-ton loads. SDs are already tall enough to fit 35’s right off the lot. If you expect work out of a serious off-road package, the compromised stack up against you quickly.

      1. @Mr Knowitall
        A Raptor 3/4 would defeat the purpose of having a Raptor variation. A more capable off road 3/4 ton, much better idea

        1. Not necessarily. If Ford were to build an F250 Raptor or equivalent they would have a competitor for the Ram Power Wagon. At the moment the Power Wagon has no direct competition. The competition would result in better product from both Ram and Ford which has to be better for all of us.

    2. Raptor super duty would make some sales. Not like the gen 2 raptor will. I say ford should work with BFG and get a off road tire to compliment the super duty. High towing, payload etc… Throw some upgraded shocks on it and a front and rear bumper to give it better angle approaches and they have a winner.

    3. For the F-250, I would want something in between a power wagon and a Raptor. A slight lift with custom Billistein shocks, tough A/T tires and a stock winch would be plenty. I would prefer a Torsion type front differential over a locker. Not a dedicated rock climber. Not a dedicated Baja racer. Just something fun for the back forty.

      1. Also, 285/65 R18s or bigger for sure. Maybe some a slightly wider stance since it is already pretty tall. Stock 4.30 gears, of course. A super cab with a 6.5′ bed would be best, but everyone has to have their crew cabs…

    4. Sorry, off topic, I just had to go back to the Power Wagon thread after this quote from Jersey and the rest of the RAM chearleaders:

      “On the other hand, the Ram beat the F-250 in pretty much every objective category that matters to truck buyers: Torque, max payload, max trailer weight, GCWR, etc.”

      I totally forgot that the F-250 was available with 4.30 gears. With that, it negates ALL advantages the RAM 2500 has over the F-250, aside from the 2 ft/lbs of torque on the dyno. A new highboy could really take a bite out of the Power Wagon sales.

      1. The F250 doesn’t come with 4.30s. You have to get an F450 for that. Also- according to the actual dyno sheets the Ram did not out torque the Ford. They took down the sheets on this page after folks called them out. But, since its cyberspace, they still exist (link below). Still waiting for that magic 8% drivetrain loss dyno sheet showing 828TQ for the Ram. https://www.tfltruck.com/2017/03/2017-heavy-duty-turbo-diesel-dyno-battle-truck-puts-power-video/2017-ram-3500-cummins-dyno/

        1. Yep, the same reasons the power wagon does not have a diesel would be the same reason for the ‘Highboy’ – lack of winch space, clearance problems with the oil pan, excessive weight, etc.

      2. Sounds like you mortgaged your life to get a Ford and you’re here daily seeking affirmation for making the right decision. I, on the other hand, have zero brand loyalty. I buy whatever truck, car, or toy makes the most sense to me at any given time. I’ve owned all 4 major brands and would buy any of them again. Doesn’t mean what’s best for me is best for you and that’s a good thing cause we’d all be driving the same truck if we all had to agree on what’s best. But to call me a RAM cheerleader just because I pointed out the results of the PUTC test is a little over the top. I cheer for innovation, performance, and results. I give credit where credit is due and I’m pretty sure I stated many times that the F-250 would be my next 3/4 ton. You, on the other hand, clearly have an unhealthy obsession with Ford which clouds your ability to objectively analyze facts. I suggest you shift your devotion to family and friends instead of truck brands. Ford doesn’t care about you and I don’t want to see you get hurt.

      1. Front lockers are a moot point. Manual hubs are a definite addition, scratch the e-locker in favor a Detroit Locker, stick op transfer case with a reliable limited slip in the front diff.

    5. If they built a Power Wagon competitor but had the diesel option and the ability to tow over 12k it would really hurt the Power Wagon sales.

    6. Anyone have any idea how many power wagons are sold per year? I think it would be cool but you could take an f250 and with a couple aftermarket add ons have pretty much exactly what you want pretty economically short of a electronic sway bar. I guess i don’t see much reason for one. Once again I’ll tow my toys to where i want to play with my nice truck and do WAY more off roading while not traahing a new truck

      1. Internal FCA sources have leaked “much less than 500 units per year” or words to that effect.

        1. That makes for a pretty small market for a SD off-roader to take a bite out of. Would be a tough sale to cough up engineering money- the VDC validation alone costs a fortune.

    7. Man that flyer brings back memories. Those were the days.

      The heavy duty off road is already where it needs to be. The debilitating factor is body clearance. If they change the approach and departure angles the trucks are already off road capable. With heavy weight however you cannot go to off road tires without losses in many avenues. The tread design and stiffness of the tire cannot be soft and hence you hit shit harder and the weight of the truck sinks and the fun factor of big vs smaller is not as good for play and it gets more and more expensive. This is why the midsize will do a lot better for fun and play being lighter, cheaper, and more agile fun which can bring larger motors which will make them even better if they ever go there, then they will be king on acceleration as well.

    8. It doesn’t need to outperform the Powerwagon, it will automatically sell like crazy because there are simply more SuperDuty customers than Ram customers.

      On the flip side, overall SuperDuty sales won’t go up because the people buying a “highboy” will be those that were going to buy a Superduty anyway. Don’t count on any “conquest” sales.

    9. Roman
      Kudos for mentioning the ” fake beadlocks”. This is why I like your videos. By the way, did they mention whether this truck was going to be manufactured by Ford or Matchbox.

    10. Making a “Raptor” Super Duty would be a flop. First, it would steal some Raptor sales and also serve to lower the exclusivity of the existing Raptor. Secondly, it would undermine the Super Duty truck by neutering its load-carrying and towing capabilities.

      In reality, a Super Duty pickup truck is already very capable off road. It has an extremely sturdy chassis, solid front and rear axles, and a suspension with a great deal of flex to it. You can already get a selectable locking rear end, and the trucks come with a brake-based traction control system which will work on just the front wheels when 4×4 and rear lock is engaged. The truck has good ground clearance and can come stock with 34.1″ tires.

      1. The truck does not have good ground clearance. Its approach angle is 17 degrees. Where will you off road with that limitation. Gravel roads and splash a puddle here and there?

        1. Its called a leveling kit and 35″ tires and remove the damn airdam if its that big of a deal or put a good odf road winch bumper on it. Adds protection, looks, functionality, and good places to mount off road lighting.

    11. Do people really do serious off-roading in HD trucks? Jeeps, quads, SxS’s and bikes would seem to me to be the weapons of choice if you want to rip it up. I need a 4×4 truck to haul, tow and bounce along fence lines. Why in the blazes would I run something that wide, heavy and expensive where approach angles matter? I understand that kids will always want bro-dozers but I just can’t fathom why people who do real work would buy HD trucks kitted out for off-roading.

      1. Black47
        Come on you’re being sensible here! The big 3 have gone to all this work to build these trucks and back them with there fabulous, you break em we fix em, warranties. Now, what could go wrong?

      2. Why does Ram have the Power Wagon then??

        Because people want a well equipped truly off road capable truck.

        A SD Ford version in my opinion would sell well and bump up the payload & towing capacities that some need over a Raptor.

        The cool factor is definitely there and Ford has the experience and balls to do it right like they’ve done with the Raptor.

        1. Mostly up North you have a myriad of situations where you require body clearance in all sorts of situations. And there are people in the South that need it as well. The fun factor is just a bonus, no different than owning a Moped that gets you to A & B but your able to pull a stoppy which most leftists say its not built for that but few of us know how to make the most out of what we have. Off road capability provides fun to many and if it’s available, I want more of it. But the off road capability of an HD is a need for many, not a want. Many of us need body clearance and better tires to get a job done, we are not always on asphalt. It is actually ridiculous that some say its not needed; must push papers across a desk all day and never actually worked a day in their life in a bad situation. People want capability even if they know they might need it, they are not willing to do without it even for one day because that will cost them more in time, money and delays to have to deal with a vehicle even for one day where an off road rig would have made the difference. Some just prefer as a convenience and for its cool factor. I get sick and tired of people acting like a truck should be stuck to pavement, so ridiculous.

          1. Rambro you said the north and the South need body clearance. What about the people east or west ? How about the people in the middle that needs body clearance?

            1. My North can’t see the South because what lives in the middle. Sorry man no one lives to the East or West. Just North and South

        2. If the quote above is true and they only sell ~500 a year, then apparently people dont want them. Everyone on this site talks about how awesome the powerwagon is, yet I doubt anyone would actually go down and buy one because its too large a compromise. If you need a 2500 capabilities, a powerwagon’s capabilities wont cut it. If you need a 1500 capabilities then a powerwagon is a lumbering behemoth compared to the competition.

    12. If you intend to take your vehicle out and trash it around in the dirt.
      You need to build your own toy vehicle and buy a new capable tow vehicle.

      Anything you run in the sand and mud is going to wear out prematurely. Why use a 70 thousand dollar vehicle for that.
      These 70 thousand dolar vehicles end up climbing speed bumps at the mall.

      So call them what they are, high rider street cruisers.

    13. I don’t know if anyones noticed but the new Superdutys are already highboys lol. Add the e-locker in the back and these thing will run circles around the old ones. The only advantage they have is being smaller, but that doesn’t matter because full-size trucks aren’t going to get smaller.

    14. Here’s how I would build it:

      37″ KO2’s, E-lockers Frnt & Rr, 4.30 gears, 6.2 gas V8 HO version – 500hp +, Diesel 6.7 Option, unique high clearance bumpers, full skid plates, front sway bar disconect,
      12000lb winch, lockers work in high range like Raptor!

      It would be sold out faster than a Raptor!!!

      Look around you, how many HD trucks do you see lifted, trying to look like just like this package?

      1. So why not jist buy your super duty of choice and then add the mods that match the capabilites your looking for? Once upon a time lift kits were horrible and affected highway driving adversely but anymore they are extremely high quality if you go with a reputable outfit and most times stronger than stock components being replaced. Personally i like to be able to customize my truck so its not the same as everyone elses out there. I realize there are a lot of people who are not mechanically inclined and just want to be able to drive one off the lot but they can learn something and do it themselves or pay someone to make it how they want. I take pride in how my truck looks and performs because i made the accessory choices and homework behind said selections. If tou have the mechanical aptitude of a rock than most dealers will sell you a accessorized truck with full warranty.

    15. Rambro
      So tell us what new $70,000 truck are you driving offroad that is also your daily driver? Don’t just look at new trucks at your local dealers for years, never buying one! And then turn around and call us pencil pushers. You’re the “poser” here!

      1. As I said, people don’t buy them to off road, they buy off road capability for the times when they may need it. But there is a fun factor to off roading that’s just a bonus feature. Idiots turn this bonus feature into “why would you buy an HD truck to off road when you can buy a dirt bike” JFC people get a clue, trucks are not meant specifically for pavement dwellers.

        1. My F350 does everything i need it to, and goes pretty much anywhere i realistically point it. Yes it has skid plates and they have been used. Here in the Mountains of Western Montana between mud,snow,pavement, logging roads etc, i have never found myself saying man i wish i had the capabilties of a PW. If anything I don’t use my truck to 100% of its capabilites and its just an FX4. So your argument doesn’t really stand up in my opinion

          1. Realistically a 17 degree approach angle wont go anywhere off road that is required for a true workhorse so your argument is false by fact. The approach angle is fact and 17 degrees is a debilitating off road factor. I don’t need any more proof than that for any logical and educated individual reading this.

            1. My approach angle is much higher than 17 degrees. Its called a 2.5″ leveling kit and 35″ tires with no air dam. Probabky has a better approach angle now than a PW

            2. Yes, 98% for looks, but it does improve the approach angle. I’m not saying I don’t like the idea of a Raptor etc, but if you want a particular look on your truck or want to upgrade it’s ability thats what the aftermarket is for. Thw OEM’s can’t package everyone’s wet dream into one vehicle it’s impossible and that’s not even taking into effect fuel mileage regulations.

            3. So I can get five engine choices but I have to modify my bumper on an off road package. It’s ridiculous. Like I said the Ford is already capable if they fixed the body clearance which in your case you had to go aftermarket and modify the debilitating factors that an Off Road package should not have and maybe take lessons from a Tacoma or a Raptor for proper body clearances.

    16. Why you would by a 7,500 lbs HD truck to go offroading is the question. 22′ Long, lower break over angle, poor turning radius, they sink, and don’t handle well. Ram does sell the power wagon in low numbers but offer the same compenents on a 1500 and the sales would take off, or better yet Dakota based Power Wagon.

      1. It makes no sense. It is like a mullet … cool as hell at the moment but then you grow up and realize you were gravely mistaken.

      2. This is exactly why my supercrew 6.5′ bed F150 will never get more than a set of duratracs and bilstein shocks. It will never be great off road even with a 6″ lift.

    17. Those Power Wagon numbers are much lower than many would think. Internal sources have reported sales as “much less than 500 units per year” and the Power Wagon registry reports anywhere from 85-101 units per year. These things are the truck equivalent to unicorns in the wild…

      1. That’s not probable Moondog. I remember there being well over 2000 Ram dealers just in the US alone. My two dealers each have 3 coming in that they will have to sell. That’s 6 just in my city alone for just likely less than 1% of Canada. I think Texas alone sells more trucks than all of Canada. I am not a mathematician but 500 units does not add up from the reality I see here.

        1. I’m talking USA sales and I would post the links if the website would let me. Google Power Wagon registry. Also Google Power Wagon annual sales and look for the PUTC article. There is also an ALLPAR (very reputable) article I can’t locate that gave a high mark of 250 total but they have declined significantly since. That was maybe 2014? I bet you these numbers are dead on. In fact, go to the Ram USA website and do a nationwide search and see how many you come up with. Not many..,

      2. Moondog
        Thanks for the numbers.this is what I’ve been saying for some time! All these specialty trucks (power wagon, 17 raptor, cr2, 1969 hemi anything) were made more as a marketing ploy. Rather than a model that was going to make them a fortune from sales. All these marketing ploys are either unavailable at dealers or they are priced so rediculous that when customers get there they end up thinking;well maybe I’ll wait until next year. And next year never comes! Few people put their money where their mouth is!

        1. You are dead on correct sir. We have to realize that we are all truck crazy by virtue of us being on here during the middle of a work day and at night when we most are with their families. :). It is hard for us to fathom why these trucks aren’t selling in numbers because we think they are so great. As an FYI, I have never seen a Power Wagon in the wild where I live and I live in the capitol city of my state. These are rare trucks. My local dealers, to include within a 100 mile radius, all said they have never had or seen one outside of the Ram marketing events.

        2. Except the raptor sells, marketing ploy or not. I see raptors daily, usually more than one, and I see a power wagon once in a blue moon.

            1. 2017 Raptors that is, I sold 3, gal next to me sold 4, all at MSRP, she did one at 5k over because the guy was being mean. 😛

          1. Every Raptor I’ve seen is immaculate. Every Power Wagon I’ve seen is the complete opposite of immaculate. And I live out in the country on farmland and close to a state forest where trucks are constantly going up and down the highway.

            I think it’s safe to say that most Raptor customers buy one only for “bragging rights”. They buy one because it has the Raptor badge and features that other halfton trucks don’t have. Though the use of these features is little to none. Again, they buy one for “bragging rights”. But hey, Ford and its dealership network are making money off these people so looking at it purely from a business standpoint, looks like their investment has paid off.

            Granted, there may not be a huge market for an HD fully dedicated off-road truck but at least customers in this market actually take their trucks off-road. So Power Wagons may be rare, but trust me, when you do see one it won’t be shinning like it just came off a showroom floor (like the Raptors that I see everyday).

            1. I agree with you most Raptors are purchased for just that “bragging rights” but I’ve seen a decent amoumt that have gotten down and dirty. Ive also seen a few power wagons that are undeniably pavement princesses. Take into effect how many more Raptors are out there than PW and you get the idea. I’m sure 95% of PW purchases are for bragging rights as well.

        3. In 2011 the Raptor sold 13,000 units published by Ford on Newsday. That’s hardly a marketing ploy at a 624 million dollar sales volume. That’s just something I found and the PW sells way more than 500. Searching lots for monthly listings of PW’s that may not even be listed but sitting on lots is hardly a convincing sales report. Realistically they sell well over 500 a year. I see them on a regular basis in my city. I’ve never seen a Unicorn. Closet unicorn I have seen is when classmates used to have to sit in a corner wearing a dunce hat where you guys belong right now. LOL

          1. notice I said 17 raptor. the 2011 raptors were available everywhere and they were reasonably priced. and they did sell better.

            1. The article goes on to say that off road trucks are continuing to climb in sales volume and popularity. Even China wants the 2017 models. So your position is hardly worth batting an eye at trying to back pedal to a 17 model vs price argument.

          2. I think the Raptor sells in much higher volumes but Ford will never tell us. Now, much higher than the PW is not saying much but within 100 mikes of my home Ford has 17 Raptors available versus 11 PWs for a much bigger distance (over twice) that covers the largest cities in the SE. I have even seen interviews when the PW was brought out where the 500 number was mentioned. Now I would imagine Ford is going to move a lot more Raptors but around here they are sitting on lots for a long time before they sell. That is likely because of the price.

            1. rambro
              also note that in 2011, the same year the raptor sold 13,000 units ford also sold 70,832 rangers and because of its low sales numbers they dropped the ranger. so I guess even 13,000 raptor sales isn’t too good. but I still think it’s more than they’ll sell in 2017.

            2. They did tell us. 2011 they sold over 13,000 units. I would expect the Power Wagon to be close to that but nowhere near as low as 500 units. And I wouldn’t rely on PUTC, and their sources, they have posted too much crap for my liking.

            3. Moondog, you can go to Auto trader.com which is just one website that a dealer may or may not list their truck at. There is 464 Power Wagons listed and 791 Raptors just in one search engine. If Raptor sold 13,000 units in 2011 than PW will sell a hell of a lot more than 500.

              Also Tacoma sales show that 40% of their customers are buying into the upcharge for their off road TRD models and continue to build on off road

              And if these manufacturers actually start offering better options then look what happens. China actually sends their money over as a bonus because we had something to offer. Too much of the same shit and you become a dinosaur in the market and the rest of the world keeps your money while your taxes continue to sky rocket. Hopefully Bollinger makes the real thing soon in a midsize unit.

            4. Dan by your theory Nissan Frontier, Honda Ridgeline and almost all commercial vans and performance sports cars and high end auto dealers should drop their vehicles too because they too sell less than 70,000 units. Maybe they should drop the diesel option as well since it still only makes up 3% of North American vehicle sales to date. Nice backpedaling, but work on your J-paddle a bit more

            5. Those dealers are only hurting themselves, their next batch of allocation on Raptors (even orders) won’t get scheduled and will go to other dealers who flip them.

            6. the same site, autotrader.com shows they have 84,638 new 2017 f150 on dealer lots. while only 792 2017 raptors on dealer lots. do the math it’s 0.009 [that’s less than 1% of f150’s are raptors on the lots] like I said a very low volume seller.

            7. I’m not the one that dropped the ranger because it was only selling 70,000 units a year ford did. so blame them. do you even know what back peddling is?

            8. Well if I ball park this 780,000/84,000×792 is 7350 Raptors. Still lower than the reported 13,000 but hey I’m just trying to get past the 500 mark for the PW and this is really all the information I can find. But every F150 is different as well. There will be five engine choices with a myriad of other combinations and they still have a 17 degree approach angle on the HD in their Off Road truck. I can swap an engine but I can’t get more body clearance on an Off Road model with an FX4 package unless I buy a Raptor. Ridiculous.

    18. For what it is worth, there are 11 within the max distance I can search on Ram’s website and that covers huge cities such as Atlanta, Nashville (not as huge), all cities within my state (zero), cities in Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, South Carolina. This is truck country, folks. There are 11 available.

      1. moondog
        the facts don’t lie! thanks again for [actual] numbers. by the way I just tried to do a inventory search for the 17 raptor from 3 different zip codes around the country and guess what? My computer says ‘page not available”, how convenient for ford!
        ]

    19. I would add that if these trucks are so limited, it might not be a bad investment if you can afford to get one and drive it scarcely. The moment I hear they are going to discontinue this truck I may get one and just hang onto it. I almost did that with the Land Rover Defender and kick myself every time I see one for sale for six figures…

    20. Dont bother. The powerwagon is basically the same as a Titan XD, its got the size and mpg’s of a 2500 but the capabilities and power of a 1500(or less). Sure its got lockers and fancy stuff like that but most people in real life dont use that and if they do they can add it themselves.

        1. Simple, while these specialized trucks are cool they are not particularly practical for most people and a big expense for the company producing them albeit a good PR product. Typically with aftermarket add ons, they get installed when someone wants their particular function, so why not embrace the aftermarket more with more authorized performance parts that will retain your warranty if installed by an authorized shop? Simply put aftermarket stuff gets used for intended purpose where many off road trucks have built in abilities that don’t get used and drive up cost substantially

      1. Jay S

        Hahaha You must not know much about the Power Wagon or any truck from the RAM lineup as you just tried to compare a RAM Power Wagon to a Titan XD.

        This is typical of Ford fanboys. You guys begin spouting off shit about the competition that’s completely inaccurate.

        How about only comment on trucks you actually know something about which would be Fords since you’re a fanboy.

        The Power Wagon, hands down, will outperform the Raptor as it can do everything that the Raptor can with the addition of rock crawling. Try that in a Raptor.

        Truth is, the automotive press likes to sugarcoat the whole debate by saying that both trucks are completely different breeds designed for different purposes. True, the Raptor maybe faster than the Power Wagon but how many go that fast off-road? Hardly anybody does this. In the end, the Power Wagon has proven itself time after time with a lot to be desired with the Raptor.

        1. Apparantly his comparison was way over your head. Nissan makes an XD which is a heavier than average half ton with not much more if any capability. The PW is a 2500 thats payload and towing capacity has been reduced to 1500 or less territory. Yes it has lockers and an electronic sway bar, leveled and a winch. Why not just add most of those to a regular 2500 yourself and retain your towing and workability. Unless your hooked on their hideous graphics packages?

          1. Brewhaha. Jay’s was comparing Titan XD to the PW and brewhaha goes off on tangent about the raptor on how pw so much better than raptor. It is sad that brewhaha biasness gets him off the subject of what Jay’s post was talking about which had nothing to do with the topic at hand. Jay’s I agree with your assessment on the PW might be more aligned to the Titan xd. Good observation.

    21. now getting back to the original question. should ford build a new ”
      highboy 250″ the answer is yes, but only if it is 1. reasonably priced 2. actually deliverable within a short, reasonable time after you order it. 3. not subject to ridiculous dealer mark-ups. in other words, not just another advertising gimmick.

      1. adding another model, option
        or anything else that gives customers more “choice” is always a good thing!

      2. I agree on the Highboy – heck yes – build it. This would work. Leave the Raptor alone and let it be the Raptor but don’t screw up a good 3/4 ton. Now, I could see a small Raptor version for the upcoming Ranger. That would be nice.

      3. Dan bush 1 if isn’t Jack up to the Moon. similar to the ram would be fine. 2 if there isn’t​a huge demand for it. 3 are you wishful thinking?

    22. In 2008, the last year of the third gen PW, 180 units were manufactured. That is a fact from the PW registry who obtained the numbers legitimately for the third gen. They do not have numbers yet for the fourth gen but they only registered 101 in 2015. That number is low and likely off by 100 units or so. A really good dealer told me the numbers around 2016 were substantially below 500 and hinted around 200 or so but was afraid to commit. Why else would they come up with so many crazy paint schemes each year? Remember the splash looking graphics on the side? It didn’t work because they weren’t selling. I still love these trucks but saying there are thousands of these selling each year is like saying Chevy is selling 10,000 ZR1 Vettes each year. No, they aren’t folks. The PW is Ram’s truck version of the ZR1 absent the really great engine….

      Here are the numbers for the third gen.
      2005: 2,427
      2006: 1,644
      2007: 853
      2008: 190

    23. Sorry, for the additional post but around this time we had the great economic recession AND thought gas prices would remain high forever so I would imagine that played into the numbers being so low for the last year.

      1. rambro
        I can’t wait to here you incoherent, fanboy answer to these facts. Now try real hard not to curse or be insulting, we’re not in middle school anymore!

        1. Dan it makes no sense what Moondog is saying. Less than 200 units registered and I just found 464 units on one search engine. Moondog you will need to source your facts because nothing you have said is realistic I just don’t see it

          1. It is, my friend. Check out the numbers I posted below. Then, do a zip code search for a zip code in Alabama and tell me what you see. There are 11 within 200 plus miles of me and that covers many cities. Also, see the stats I posted. Based on my samp,e size that would put the 17 PW at about 700 units this year and that would make sense for US sales because they are pushing the truck much harder this year. Back in the third gen days they sold a lot more of these trucks than they do now. I have a reliable source not named PUTC that puts the number below 500 (last year) but that’s OK. We would be kidding ourselves to think this truck sold in the massive numbers you think it does. Go to the Ram website and be sure that you look for exact matches only for the PW – don’t just look at all matches – exact only. The website pulls in all kinds of close matches not named PW. We want exact. I will be glad to provide the link to the 11 trucks in my area that are EXACT matches.

            1. There is not enough information to make a conclusion. Ram is hiding the numbers. From a common sense standpoint I just don’t agree the numbers are that low and we really don’t have any facts on it. I see a lot of them in my city. I see more PWs than I see Ridgelines. If they only made 500 my two Ram dealers would never ever even get a chance to park one on their lots let alone have 6 available. That’s just common sense I know to be true but neither one of us are going to be able to fact check any claims. Just opinions.

            2. And those registered numbers are from a guy with a source. They are not fact. No FCA rep ever released those numbers.

            3. I had a dealer tell me that the goal was 500 after an event pushing these. I know them and trust them. These trucks are bait trucks to show what Ram can do to get people to the lots. Not a single dealer in a 100 miles radius of my home in a capitol city has ever had one, Rambro. I’m talking US sales here as well BUT I know these trucks very well and shopped them hard for several years. I have lived here through the 3rd and 4th generation PWs and not one dealer has ever had one. I would have a better chance of catching a unicorn than seeing a PW in the wild where I live. This was one of the two reasons I was drawn to this truck – rarity and my grandfather had one over 30 years ago. I love these trucks – flaws and all.

              Available inventory is always a sample size of what manufacturers hope sales to be. They make so many in hopes of selling what they make based off past demand and hopes of future projections/demand. The numbers I posted statistically support 700 units this year. That makes sense because Ram is pushing this truck a bit more, but let’s face it – this is not a money maker. For that, see Ram 1500 and almost anything named Jeep, also available on that dealer lot that does not have that cool PW you are looking for because you saw all those truck experts on TFL Truck ranting over it or that cool FCA press release. Chevy does it with such rare birds as the ZR1 Corvette, LT1 Camaro, and Cadillac V cars. Soon we will have a ZR2 that will also be a low numbers vehicle.

              If you are seeing that many PWs then you are likely seeing used ones from days gone by or you live in Ram heaven so just enjoy it my friend because I have never seen one where I live and I bet you the states within that 200 plus mile search I conducted buy more trucks than all of Canada. I will say I do see a lot of Canadians that like their Ram trucks so maybe all you guys got the PWs!

            4. So weird this morning after this talk, coming into work I got to pull up right beside a brand new Raptor. We both played with a fun little jump out of the hole up to 80km/hr and they look clean and fast and glued to the road but man do they ever sound terrible, a lot worse in real life then what you hear in the video, I was embarrassed for the guy. Beautiful truck otherwise but still has limitations of the low diff and low shock mounts. But right after that almost immediately im turning left into work and here is a brand new looking 2016 Power Wagon pulling out of the intersection I am at. And really I should be in a Pro Tacoma had my dealer had one. Pretty cool to see that after this “rarity” talk. All three rare trucks would have been at one intersection.

            5. I said it before – you live in truck heaven so enjoy it! I have seen some Raptors here but have yet to see a PW. I would love to.

    24. Don’t really care what they do….. and look, yet another bs Raptor related report! ….. Shocking

    25. Also, to continue with my example I pulled up every Ram 1500/2500/3500 within 200 miles of my zip code and took out the 11 available Power Wagons. I pulled up a total of 7,814 trucks. If you do the math the Power Wagon equals .14 of 1 percent of inventory. This means that the PW doesn’t even make up 1/7 of 1 percent of the current Ram inventory. While this is not entirely reflective of actual sales, if we used this number and converted it based on last year’s annual Ram sales of 543,918 units, the PW would make up around 700 units of those based on this sample size. We know this is likely not so because my area is a truck heavy area and could have more PW’s than some. Either way, I think this supports the ballpark figure of around 500 units a year. This is also using data from a revised 2017 model that is being pushed for higher numbers than the 15 and 16 models.

      I say it again – I am a fan of the PW. However, it is an exceptionally low volume seller.

      1. Likely because its fun to dream about owning, but when it comes down to spending the cash everyone goes elsewhere because its too much of a compromise. Its the master of nothing.

    26. Nothing beats a Power Wagon, TFL’s own reports showed us this.

      Raptor has 0 towing capability, and is far too wide…. and now runs off the 3.5 Ecoboost. It’s longevity will be put to the test.

      The Raptor has literally no real world, every day usefulness…. it’s a desert runner with a whiny V6.

      1. 0 is a stretch. No real world usefulness is a stretch. You act like the Powerwagon has these massive numbers when the reality is they are marginally higher than a supercrew raptor. There are regular 1/2 ton’s out there that have less payload and towing capability than the Raptor and people still buy those. There are also half tons out there that have more payload and towing capacity than a Powerwagon. Does that mean the Powerwagon has 0 towing capability? Or is useless?

        1. Agreed. When someone posts 0 we start to read closely. When they keep posting it, we stop paying attention because we know the remaining posts liklel have 0 cred…. Both of these trucks do what they were built to do. The Raptor is the best at what it does and it really has no competition. The PW can also say the same. These are different animals and it’s not like you can’t haul anything with them – you can. They weren’t built to have class leading payload and towing because they are in a class of one.

        2. No it just means they made a 450 hp truck with less towing capacity than a GMC Colorado…. Power Wagon is far more of a ‘truck’ is my point. It’s far more capable off road AND as a utility vehicle with close to 10,000 lb towing. It isn’t very fast, but once again, it’s a truck not a racer…. Raptor is nothing but a racer.

          1. I know but that was tough! LOL. The PW may do more truck stuff for most (depending on what your truck stuff needs are) but again these trucks are just built for different purposes. They are both awesome at what they do. I’m not trying to be too diplomatic but guess I am when I say I like them both equally yet differently… if I lived near a desert I would go Raptor. Where I live I think the PW would work better for my needs and that is why I almost bought one last time around.

            1. Moondog I find it amazing that that people like Joe lesko show themselves there true bianess yet each vehicle serves different purpose. Correct me if I’m wrong I believe the crew cab raptor tows 8000lbs? I do believe it is more than the Colorado.

            2. He likely seen the Supercab Raptor only good for 6000-lbs. The double cab is 8000lbs but the Colorado is close at 7700Lbs. I still can’t get past the sound I heard this morning from the new raptor. You could not force me into buying that truck with that spatter coming from the tailpipe. That did it in for me. I wuld never buy a Raptor and I was not impressed with the Power Wagon and its on road limitations with its inferior 4×4 in hi mode. And its size and weight is too much for me. Ill stick to the midsize segment for now is where I keep coming back to.

            3. Rambro, this is what I kept coming up with. Every time it came time to turn loose of the money, logic took over for me. I like looking at the Raptor and PW, but not enough to spend my money on it. I have seen the Raptor out but have not listened closely to it. That would not be a deal breaker for me but the crazy price they go for is. They may have a reasonable starting price but you won’t see those entry level Raptors around here. I think so many are sitting because of the price. The PW is a huge truck and I love the way it looks. But, for it to be so big and utilitarian looking, I could get a true utilitarian truck for less. I like midsize trucks and cannot see going to a fullsize any time soon. It may happen but I don’t see it any time soon. And, let’s face it, these midsize trucks are not exactly small.

            4. Moondog, maybe you should listen to the Raptor in real life like I just got to hear this morning and you may be a little embarrassed by it, so much that it will change your mind. All my doubt was immediately and permanently removed as to whether it might be okay when I heard that exhaust note this morning. The Raptor and I both punched it out of the hole and after the initial jump he took off of course ahead but the sound completely drowned out my V6 in the Tacoma. We both topped out at 80km and backed off to that cruise speed with him up ahead and met again, but luckily I was turning and when he took off normal the sound was still drowning out everything around us with this horrible crackle. It literally sounds like you would have a leaf blower with a crackle in the engine like nothing I have heard before. Closest thing would be a rice rocket but its not subtle, it’s way out there in your face loud. I was embarrassed, not because he got ahead of me but because of the noise it made. Its a complete deal breaker, its so loud, annoying and embarrassing for my generation to be driving that. Definitely cannot deal with that, as a daily driver, you have to hear one in real life under acceleration. Its terrible and I apologize to the Raptor fans but that is how I feel and felt.

            5. I haven’t heard one but you would think they could have done something to make the sound better. The Tacoma with cat back exhaust sounds nice to me for a V6 so why couldn’t they do something with the EB? Maybe they have the boost up so high until they can’t cover it up. I’m not sure but I did notice that even Roman, as much as he loves the Raptor, was having a difficult time with the sound. That’s a shame.

    27. Based on our assessments of what a truck should do this may be true BUT the Raptor has always been built to be a purpose built truck and its purpose is a Baja truck. It does that like no other. It can also carry a dirt bike or two along the way so that suits virtually every Raptor owner’s needs. Then again, about 9/10 fullsize trucks I see around my neck of the woods don’t have a single scratch in the bed. Most never tow a thing and most would never even load up the bed (it could get dirty). This is just a reality. These numbers are either for serious working trucks or bragging rights or both. The PW is very unimpressive when compared to other 3/4 tons with regards to hauling and towing but it fulfills its purpose of being a purpose built off-road vehicle very well. I would buy either one that meets my needs and wants without hesitation if I wanted a fullsize truck.

    28. Little rant : It’s 21st century and manufacturer doesn’t know to figure out how to prevent truck crying mud over the headlights, when going through a splash ?

      I have no doubts this will sell well in ford community, I just don’t see a point and no, this is not a Power Wagon competition.

      1. Haha, yeah i suppose. Problem is when a Volvo or the like comes into the shop with wipers on headlights i cringe thinking about having to troubleshoot ans fix one more system

        1. I meant something different in this particular case.
          The muddy water gets through the gap between the hood and top of the headlights right on them.

        2. BTW , I had a high pressure nozzles hidden under the headlights at VW Sharan 18 years ago. It would be more handy in this situation , than mud covered cameras. I guess, you have to take that splash last. It would ruin your offroading otherwise.
          Sarcasm off.

    29. have you ever driven one of those “highboy” trucks? They were an all new definition of road wander. Also, every snowfall would find several upside down in the borrow pits as a result of extreme high center of gravity, driving too fast for conditions and losing, then obtaining traction just before they flipped.
      Ford could be accused in court of advertising a “death trap” truck if they actually promoted driving it as you can a Raptor!
      Lets face it you can only try to circumvate Physics to a point.
      Take a Raptor, put F 250 springs under it. Then raise the weight to F250 levels and increase the center of gravity by 8-10 inches and you have a recipie for disaster just waiting to happen..
      There are only so many people willing to buy a 3/4 ton that is that crazy and they are buying the Power Wagon, but not in the numbers that Ford would need to justify to produce such an abortion of a good pickup.

    30. My friend’s dad had a new F250 highboy back in ’77. It looked good, but my gosh, it rode “like a lumber wagon.”

    31. I would be more interested in a Raptor version of the 2019 Ranger. Just make sure it gets the 2.7L EB and they won’t be able to build them fast enough.

      1. You are right about that, but it would eat the Raptor’s very high profitable sales, so it’s not going to happen.

    32. Larry H Miller in Utah already owns the rights to the Highboy they are making them, you can you tube it.

    33. Call it a High Boy FX4. Give it a V8 eco boost. Have a manual transmission option. Throw on some serious off road tires. Let it stand out from other superdutys with some off road bumpers/ grill/ Lights. Don’t over build it to the point where there is no payload left In the thing. It doesn’t need to compeat with the PW head on, let the Bronco be the rock crawler. There is room for a High Boy, but one that can work hard in it toughest conditions and look good doing it.

    34. I remember them high boys vagely. Tote in post early was pretty much spot on about the high boys.
      Who wants a truck that high that becomes useless? I like how the PW height is. If Ford would had something like that with gas engine I might be interested.

      1. I can’t recall who said it earlier but to me I think the manufacturers should partner with some of the off road companies and stamp their seal of approval on certain mods (by factory warranting them) and let the customers choose that 2 inch lift or more aggressive tires or whatever. I’m sure agreements could be reached where it would be mutually beneficial for all involved. To me, everyone wins under this scenario. I know a lot of dealers do this on their own and warranty it on their own but it says more if the manufacturer does it and stands behind it. I see huge profits. OK, you want a 3 inch lift and 35″ tires and what else? Sign here please….

    35. You know I like that new grey Ford going through that mud hole in the tfl beginning of there video. They show several times.
      You know ram missed​ out promoting there pw doing the same thing. A marketing campaign lost. Just observation.

      1. The powerwagon doesnt have a low payload because its not a 4500, its because it has a soft suspension to do well offroad. An F450 that is made to off-road as well as the powerwagon would have just as crappy a payload.

        1. Not if they didn’t make it that way, that is what we are trying to persuade them to do. We are trying to persuade them to do it differently. At least in the consumer realm. It has been done before.

          1. How would you suggest they make it? How are you going to have a hyper stiff suspension made for supporting huge payloads that also articulates well off road?

            1. It has been done many times in the commercial and military realms and a bit in the consumer arena. There are several suspension and frame variations that do this, but today’s consumers just don’t demand it be done. So lets demand it!

            2. To begin with, stop spending all the money on the styling and useless bits that people are dumping their life’s savings into, and use all that to make a well made vehicle that is also useful.

    36. Oh, and for all those here that don’t know much about trucks, but say they do, the F-450 actually sits lower than the F-350 so it can be used as a better tool than a toy.

      And moreover, please DON’T make it look good, so the R&D money goes to making a decent vehicle rather than a toy.

      1. Would not be a great trailer blazer though, the 450 has the wide track front suspension and is dually only. I see enough ranchers with broken wheel wells in the back 😀

        But Tote is very correct, the current Super Dutys have a higher center of gravity than previous years so the suspension and track width would have to be slightly adjusted.

        Would have to be a gas engine, F-250 4×4 short wheel base, Crewcab or Supercab, they have the best clearance out of the bunch and departure angles.

    37. I think that it would just ducky if they could come out with one with high speed computer generated variable roll suspension, Turbocharged Wankel engine 15 speed convertible transmission (5speed manual for those dimwits who think we are still in the 20Th century and 10 speed Automatic for the 98% who want better fuel economy and performance and far better convenience. When running in manual mode, it could just kill the engine on take off every so often so the manual tran guys would feel at home.
      It could come with 50″ of ground clearance with computer enhanced 8 pipe exhaust. I can see it now, every so often it could just run into a light pole to eliminate the driver as they would never buy another one.
      Hey the chances of them selling one like that are a good as Pewter Dragon being a big seller for FIAT.

    38. As an aside, I have often thought it dumb for Toyota to offer engines on Tacos,Camrys, and several Lexus models with both Direct and Timed port injection I have changed my mind about that for two reasons:
      1- timed port injection is quieter at idle than Direct injection. (Idle is the ONLY time that the Toyota (and Lexus) engines have the port injection activated.
      2- I have read a lot of articles on carbon build up on the heads of the intake valves on direct gasoline injection engines, as only air is intended to pass through the intake valves but EGR sends all sorts of nasties into the valve ports and they attach to the head of the valves. You can have these cleaned off by high pressure air and solvent spraying (if you catch it early enough) Toyota won’t admit it, but I believe that the intake mixture flowing over the valve heads at idle is enough to clear the deposits before they can cause the engines to fail.
      -Just a thought, not only quieter, but cleaner, and with the same performance when called for. Wow! Kudos for Toyota!
      Am I on the right track here?

      1. My 3.5 Tacoma has more power than my second gen and several more MPGs during the city and highway. Once you get the tranny adjusted to your driving habits this is a very nice engine. I have no complaints BUT maybe hearing the tranny where there is just a little more down low would have been nice. If you step on it it goes really well but at 82mph I’m only tacking 2,000 rpm.

      2. Yes, these are the reasons why ford went dual injection on the 2017 EB, but I dont think its as big a deal as people suggest. Diesels have had DI for nearly 20 years and their EGR’s are far worse than a gas motor. The germans have been using DI on gas engines for a long time too.

        You are NOT supposed to use solvents on GTDI motors because if the carbon breaks off in chunks it could cause damage to the turbos. I kinda wonder if you do it often enough(every oil change perhaps) from the time the car is new if it would keep the crap from caking on heavy enough to do damage.

    39. I vote against a Super Duty “Raptor.”

      F-150 is plenty.

      As for the Power Wagon, it is a great machine but sells significantly less than 500 per year and is not all that popular.

      Ford should stick to what they are doing.

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