• Truck Owners Suing Ford For Alleged Diesel Emissions Cheating [News]


    2015, ford, super duty, f350, f-350
    [photo: Ford]
    Ford Motor Company is being sued by vehicle owners alleging that some 500,000 Super Duty trucks have been cheating on their diesel emissions, according to Bloomberg. Trucks included in this lawsuit are the F-250 Super Duty and the F-350 Super Duty.

    These allegations claim that the Super Duty trucks are emitting as much as 50 times the legal limit for nitrogen oxide pollutants. So far, the suit affects trucks from 2011-2017.

    Daniel Barbosa, a spokesman for Ford, has stated in an email that Ford is within all emissions regulations, and that Ford has installed no defeat devices on its vehicles.

    Automotive supplier Bosch has also been listed as a defendant in this case. Bosch has allegedly worked with Ford to mask the defeat devices according to those in the suit.

    We will continue to provide updates on this story as more information comes. Please be sure to stay tuned to TFLtruck.com for future updates on the potential Ford emissions case.

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    138 thoughts on “Truck Owners Suing Ford For Alleged Diesel Emissions Cheating [News]

      1. The real big laugh with all this is that the new direct injection gas motors put out worse and more unhealthy particulates than the new diesels.

        And this is irrespective of the filters.

        The new direct injection engines burn fore fine particles that are more difficult for the body to get rid of, so they do their damage for longer than the larger diesel particulates.

        So, all these people are way behind the curve in understanding the truth of the matter.

        Soon, all gas motors will also have the same regulations on them than diesels do, maybe even more intense regulations to fit the gas’s worse particulates.

        Now, mind you, this does not apply to the old port injection burning of gas, which some new cars still use for a variety of reason. But the future is to use both port and direct injection on the same engine for maximum efficiency and longevity of the engine.

        Well, its all just a revealing exercise in human stupidity.

        1. Oh, I would never buy a Ford with their statistics of engine quality.

          But its quite the laugh to see environmental people suing a manufacturer for making an engine that now achieves 30 MPG on the most popular emitter and biggest guzzler of fuel sold in America–the pickup.

          The irony!

            1. It’s not about the 3.0? Hal can’t be bothered with such minute details. He even thinks it’s “environmentalists” suing Ford… your better off just going with it…

            2. Oh really, how much you want to bet the 3.0 won’t come under this by the time it all shakes out. The whole powerstroke name will be under scrutiny. Anything diesel to the lawyers. They actually think diesel is more harmful than the new gas engines, even thought the diesels make more healthy particles and less of them since they use less fuel.

            3. There is no traction in this lawsuit just like the Duramax lawsuit. Unless the EPA days there is something wrong, it is just a few lawyers digging for gold. Nothing more nothing less.

            4. Once again, you get it wrong.

              Diesel does not make healthy particles.

              Direct injection gas motors make particles that are more unhealthy than diesel, and more of them.

              Don’t take my word for it, look it up yourself.

        2. Not true Rambros Bro. Diesel pollutes 100 times worse than a gas engine even the new ones. People modify the new diesels by the masses and this in turn leads to an epidemic like what has happened in Europe. Diesel is proven to be the cause of premature lung cancer, brain failure, skin and organ failure and leads to many cases of birth defects.

          Check out Arnold Schwarzenegger with a new EV Mercedes

          1. I think it really just depends on what kinds of pollution you are talking about. NOx? Particulates-PM10, PM2.5? Different engines make different amounts of different pollutants. It’s pretty difficult to determine which ones really do the most damage. Are very fine particulates worse for overall long term health impacts over NOx? You can find research that goes either way.

      2. I find it very hard to believe that Ford would go through all of the engineering difficulties of DEF and the requisite exhaust components, get the engine EPA certified, and then knowingly install cheating software. I hope they are proven innocent in court and then launch a defamation suit to bankrupt these parasitic lawyers for good.

    1. This has got to be BS. Why would Ford bother to do this up to the 2017 model year when they know diesels are absolutely being scrutinized post Dieselgate.

      The only reason anything happened with the RAM Ecodiesel is because it was already being sold by the time the hammer came down on VW. who knows if FCA even was intentionally doing anything wrong, it may have just been different interpretation of the guidelines.

      1. It’s because of the Bosch emissions controls Ford used. They’re using the same software in 2017 that they used in 2011. Nearly every modern diesel engine uses software created by Bosch. I’m sure the Duramax that was wrapped up in a similar lawsuit in May uses the same system. When the Ford guys were gloating back in May over the news that GM was being sued for emissions cheating, I had warned them that it was only a matter of time before Hagens Berman goes after Ford. This is the same lawfirm that sued Apple for selling iPods that could cause hearing damage if you turned the volume all the way up and sued the tobacco industry for hundreds of billions of dollars. They specialize in big class action lawsuits against big corporations that can afford to pay out a huge settlement.

    2. This is why we can’t have nice stuff at an affordable price anymore. Too many people taking advantage of others to make a quick buck.

    3. The key here is not whether or not they emit extra pollution in real world situations. We all know that they all do. The question is whether or not it exceeds pollution levels under the EPA testing cycle.

      1. Exactly right. No one can honestly expect Ford, or anyone else, to not only comply with the exact letter of the law (which isn’t easy) but also under all other ambiguous conditions.

    4. Now that’s it not Ram “cheating”, maybe we can finally have an honest conversation about these BS EPA regulations which are creating an environment where any manufacturer can run afoul of some arbitrary standards and be subject to litigation. And what legal standing do these “owners” have? What are the damages suffered? If you say increased pollution, doesn’t everyone in the U.S. then have the same legal claim? This is a slippery slope, and as usual, created by an overreaching government bureaucracy. What have all these diesel emission regulations accomplished other than reduced MPG, increased products cost, increased maintenance costs and reduced reliability? What a joke.

      1. Joke? Increased fuel economy and reduced emissions have been steadily improving for decades because of regulations.

        1. I would disagree on diesel. A tuned, deleted diesel is going to be a lot more efficient(and powerful) than anything currently coming from the factory.

        2. Don’t drink the cool-aid. Diesel MPGs have not improved as a result of any regs. Pre-DPF diesels were getting better real world MPG than today’s so called “clean” diesels when you compare engines of the same lineage. We’re talking about HD trucks here, which don’t even need to publish MPG figures. They are not subject to any government mandated MPG requirements. They are only subject to emissions standards which, as I pointed out in my original post, come at a great cost to the consumer. And since the EPA test cycles don’t represent real world driving and are therefore subject to gaming by the manufacturers, they have no true pollution reduction benefit to offset the aforementioned cost.

            1. Apparently… Crap my 05 2500 hd with 35′ and a 6″ lift could get 20+ mpg… EGR only… My dad’s 2010 Duramax could Barry muster 14… Diesel fuel economy has been going down yearly with every new epa regulation.. 50% reduction in NOx with 50% reduction in fuel economy is a wash..unless you count the added expense of maintenance and the extra fuel you burn to get it to the dealer….
              there 80’s, 90’s and 00’s diesels getting 25+ mpg…

            2. Not sure how the length of time that you’ve been driving diesels relates to this topic. My point is simply that the EPA has not done anything to benefit consumers of HD diesel trucks. Just the opposite, in fact.

            3. The intent of the EPA regs is not to increase fuel economy, it is to decrease emissions. Specifically NOx and particulates. NOx is a result of efficient combustion, but it is a bad player in the environment. Urea is used in diesel engines and in power plants to mitigate its negative effects while permitting the most efficient combustion possible.

              I have a fleet that is 80% diesel, but I accept that if everyone drove a diesel and there were emissions like we allowed 15 years ago, the air would look like India or China. I don’t like the complexity, but I feel it’s my responsibility.

              I’m not sure I’m a big fan of TFL posting every class action lawsuit alleging excess emissions, however. If a university studies emissions and finds anomaly, publish the article. If the EPA alleges emissions defeat devices, publish the article. If a law firm files a class action lawsuit alleging excess emissions, I’m not sure that is newsworthy.

            4. Technology had certainly improved overtime to help make diesels more efficient and clean, however, given the same technologies not saddled with dpf, egr, turbos sized to INCREASE exhaust pressure for more effective egr, etc. diesels could be significantly more efficient than they are.

              A simple tune on a ram ecodiesel improves them 3-5 mpg. Now you get rid of exhaust restrictions and throw on a free flowing turbine and it will go up even more. I’d bet you could see a ram ed average around 27 instead of the 22.4 fuelly.com suggests

          1. I’d also add one more thing to your fine post jerseydirt.
            It use to be that dsl fuel was lot better than it is today. Government keeps taking the sulfer out of it where now the dsl engine don’t get the fuel mileage like it did. Which all this does is drive up the cost at the refinary to take the sulfer out.

            The question I would be asking is who are these owners? And how would they know that Ford is cheating with out spending a lot of money to find out? To me I think these owners are trying to scam Ford out of some money.

          2. @JerseyDirt: I’ve owned four 6.7L Ford Powerstrokes, including the 2017 I’m driving now. All of them could achieve 20+ mpg in ideal conditions, even the dually. I’ve gotten a record (for me) 26.1 mpg driving 100 miles in hilly Vermont in a 2016 F-350 Crew 4×4. Sure, a DPF regeneration brings mpg down much lower than that, and affects overall average, but these trucks do well. And it is true that older trucks could achieve these numbers and maybe even better…but at much less horsepower and torque.

            1. @Troverman, no question that technology improved and current diesels are still able to put out respectable MPG #s and better HP figures. But this is a credit to technology advancements and not the EPA regs. If you applied current technology without the constraints imposed by the EPA, you would see even greater improvements in MPG, HP, and TQ. And there is no question that the initial,operational, and maintenance costs of diesels have gone up.

            2. @JerseyDirt-
              I agree completely. Without EPA regs on these engines, the buy-in price would be lower, the engines would be more reliable, less complex to repair, and would produce more power and better fuel economy results. BUT…eliminating the black sooty smoke and reducing PM and NOx are not bad things. While I don’t think they need to be micromanaged to the point they are now, there is no doubt we don’t want air quality like China and its nice to have a modern diesel pickup drive by without smelling it and breathing in as much harmful spent gases. So what I’m saying is that somewhere there is a balance.

      2. Jersey, this also contributes to the high cost of automobiles in general. And we have long passed the point of diminishing returns. All because we have idiots making policy that believe everything will be powered by strong feelings and unicorn farts.

      1. I don’t think it is even necessarily liberals-it’s just lawyers trying to make quick buck. No one in this lawsuit really cares about the emissions-it about the money.

    5. The same group now has open lawsuits against Ram, Cummins, GM, and Ford for diesel emissions. They are hoping to force them all to settle just to make it go away. It’s this kind of stuff that give attorneys a bad reputation.

      1. A reputation they so richly deserve.
        If I were King for a day, the EPA would devote their attention to reducing the emissions of lawyers. The Justice department will work to reinstate the guillotine as just punishment for lawyer emissions pollution!

    6. The ECM from Bosch is the ECU-17 it is the suspected defeat device. With built in programming for different settings. Very close ECU design that is involved in the GM DuraMax owners as well.FCA VM 3.0 which is built in Italy has the same Bosch components installed in it as well.

      1. So would these MFG’s know they were “cheating” or is Bosch making their injection and electronic systems look more attractive to the OEM’s by sneaking this stuff in? I mean, Bosch supplies a huge amount of the diesel injection systems so I imagine they want diesels to look good.

        Also i think its the EDC-17. My Jeep liberty is an EDC-16 and the older VW’s were EDC 15’s.

    7. We know these people are after money.
      Nothing else.

      We know absolutely nothing about their political beliefs.

      Let me point out that there are some on this board that speak highly of a diesel electric hybrid.

      1. Now, it isn’t. If Ford announced when it will go on sale, it’s emissions have already been certified by the EPA. Besides, this lawsuit is only against the much larger 6.7L V8 diesel, not the little 3.0L V6 diesel in the F-150.

    8. They are that is the ECU a “Locked device” Meaning after Bosch set’s the control language the auto manufacturer is powerless to change any language.All is a property rights protected. This ensure a stranglehold on diesel engine control management market. Bosch in VW case in Germany stated it and it alone is responsible for complete emissions control from validation to market.I believe the GM DuraMax is a -7 series unit. Also this case does not included the current gen Ford SD but it does have a Bosch ECM design develop with the AVL design team in Austria which designed this new generation of Powerstroke built in Mexico.

      1. How can Bosch set all parameters with all these diesel? Would they not need actual vehicles to test emissions on? And in the case of the ecodiesel, if Bosch has full control of emissions, then the lawsuit should be directed at Bosch because Fca would have no input on it.

      2. I’m pretty sure that vehicle manufacture is ultimately responsible for the tuning of these computers. Bosch provides the hardware and some technical support, the manufacture is going to have final say on the tuning-unless they choose to not to.

    9. Not only did VW give me a check for my tdi. Bosch mailed me a little check as well……. Bosch is going to be like Takata at some point cause bosch is used in everything.

      On a side note on bogus lawsuits, Heard on the radio that New York is sue the five largest oil companies for Global Warming… LMAO!!!!

      1. Scott – – –

        S: “..New York is sue the five largest oil companies for Global Warming..”

        Yeah. I saw that. See link below.
        This lawsuit may force a crystallization of several key issues:
        1) Is “Global Warming” real?
        2) Is the current temperature rise a natural cycle, or is it partially anthropogenic;
        3) If partially anthropogenic, what is the percent contribution from all man-made sources?
        4) Within that contribution, what percent is coming from the burning of fossil fuels?
        5) And within the percent coming from the burning of fossil fuels, what percent comes from ICE street/highway motor vehicles (as opposed to trains, planes, ships, commercial and residential heating, CNG power generation, coal power generation, and
        industrial heating processes).

        I did a separate analysis once, which showed that maximum ICE road-vehicle contribution to any temperature rise would be about 4%. (I could send that 13 mbyte paper to Andre to publish, if he sees fit..)

        Now, if science were allowed to dominate, and this did not end up before liberal socialists judges, there is no way the plaintiffs could win this. But, politics being as it is right now in the judicial system, —.who knows. Seems that the Supreme Court will be mighty bust soon….

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2018/01/10/new-york-city-sues-shell-exxonmobil-and-other-oil-majors-over-climate-change/?utm_term=.955db2e6f86b

        ==================

        1. Bernie, I heard about that lawsuit. The Democratic party renamed this whole global warming thing when evidence has pointed out that the average temps haven’t changed. Now they are saying climate change because the warming could not be proven. They were also saying that the ocean has increased in level. But it has only risen the thickness of a dime. And that is questionable. I’m all for keeping the air clean and emissions to a point but Democratics are trying to turn it into money making.

          1. Jimmy – – –

            Exactly. The so-called “Global Warming” hysteria actually has the insidious motive of some kind of socialist wealth-equalization scheme to inhibit the growth and innovative dynamism of America through guilt and shame. “Take the Big Boy down and notch and give the spoils to others…”
            The fact that the “Big Boy” earned and fought for what it has seems not to occur to those on the Left…

            ====================

            1. If we are so innovative.
              Why can’t our corporations train their employees and not hire H1b temp help?

              The public/tax payer funded universities should not be paying to educate multi million dollar globalist corporations.

      2. Scott it isn’t know surprise. Ny went after the Indians because ny was “loosing tax money on cigarettes” it became so comical and sad at the same time where ny was spending triple of the amount in court costs then it would be getting there tax money back. This going to be same case scenario where ny is going to spend more money going after big oil and not get much out of it. Then stupid — new Yorkers keep electing these idiots. Then they wonder why there taxes are so high? Because this stupid nonsense.

        1. Glen H
          I’m not sure were you get your information.

          I’m in California. The central Valley, the northern state, and the entire east half of the state is redder than Georgia.

          Acreage wise California is a red state. Think Rep. Kevin M Carthy. My Congressman.

          We are just in a situation were since Reagan. We have been cursed with some terrible Republican regimes.

          Reagan actually still has the title for raising taxes more than any other Governor.

          And since Reagan we have been in horrible dept after each Republican regime and either out of debt or heading that way after every Democrat regime.

          We are on track to have our rainy day fund maxed out and still have a 6 billion dollar plus budget surplus. Even after all the weather and fire disasters over the past few years.

          Governor Brown has turned our states finance completely around after Swartznagger destroyed it.

          He has also taken the hint from Florida and a couple of other red states.

          In some form they will make it possible to pay state taxes in the form of a charitable deduction.

          This charitable deduction in lieu of a tax payment will then be deductible from our federal income tax.

          The REPUBLICAN tax change that was intended to screw us.

          Let me just say. Some red politicking like that is about to turn me blue.

          And watch the Federal deficit explode as every other blue state makes taxes a charitable contribution.

    10. This smells just like the GM Duramax lawsuit. Like I said in the Duramax article, likely just some pissed off owners that got stuck with an after warranty failure and they don’t want to pay for it. If Ford is cheating they should pay the consequences. But it seems like a scam to get some free money. If that is the case I hope Ford, GM and Fca joins forces and destroy those money seeking lawers.

      1. Yup. Agree. Non of these lawsuits have gotten any traction in the HD realm. This will be the same.

        Surprised there would be only 500,000 powerstrokes from 2011-2017?

    11. The odd thing is, is that there was several changes in calibration between 2011 and 2017. Including hardware changes. Just sounds fishy.

      1. Exactly. And even if they were cheating in 2011 you would think they would have gotten rid of that crap the second VW went under the scope and all diesels became targets. Why would they keep on going when they were probably being watched very closely.

    12. This is complete garbage and we all know it. Unfortunately, these people are trying to force manufacturers into settling. I hope Ford and others fight this to the end and don’t give them a penny. This is about as dumb as the Taco Bell suit. A large, and actually reputable firm, sued Taco Bell because they said their tacos were not 100% beef. They claimed they had all kinds of other meat to include meat you can’t get on this continent and all kinds of other stupid stuff that would literally cost them a fortune to put in a taco. Taco Bell coyly answered the complaint and said “we never said they were 100% beef”. The firm responded by saying that Taco Bell gave the impression they were all meat but they could not find a single advertisement that said 100% beef. The judge dismissed the suit as frivolous. Justice served.

    13. Sounds like good news. Exon mobil and Shell and other fuel pirates have been ripping the consumer off for far too long. About time we use politics to sht down their own outhouses they built for themselves.

      1. What will happen to your 13mpg Tundra? How will you get gas for it? 🍿 LOL. Electric is likely coming but not as fast as some think. In the end, we still have to generate enough electricity to power them. It has to be viable. Range needs to improve. It has to be more cost efficient. What about those batteries? How safe will they be to dispose of? I’m not that familiar with the electric car but do wonder if we will see this giant push for them in the near future.

        1. Moondog – – –

          M: “Electric is likely coming but not as fast as some think.”

          Exactly. It may be that H2FC supersedes pure EV technology, and that the Japanese are actually right about this. Estimates I have heard (no ref) is that even by 2050, less than 50% of all road vehicles will be pure EV’s. See link (just an example among others):
          https://insideevs.com/auto-exec-pessimistic-on-ev-industry/

          ==========================

          1. Bernie, I share your thoughts and have confidence that the brainiacs in Japan know there is another step in between before we get there.

          2. Another thing that wasn’t commented on that link you posted (thxs bk) was the availability of electricity. I said this numerous times we have a poor electric grid and loosing power plants. You had link not long ago where one electric car is adding one house on a city block. We DON’T have enough energy to meet this demand. Rambro is spew this nonsense about how cheaper it will be to have electric car (maybe now), but when you add demand for electricity. The electric bill will go up to. We are already seeing some this in CA. Then 20 30 years down the rd rambro will look at the electric company as the same way he looks at big oil. They are gouging us.

            1. @Marc H, I’ve also tried to explain to Rambro that our grid is in no position to supply an entire electric fleet, or even a 50% electric fleet. Once we convert, if it happens, the new oligarchy will be the power companies…which are already a legal monopoly. Only difference is that electricity is much more pervasive to our lives than oil…and really, no cleaner.

    14. Stop calling people who want clean air and water liberals.

      In the true sense if the words it would be a conservative who did not want change. They would want the air and water to stay the same.

      I am not a liberal. But I want clean air and water!

      If you are cheating the rules you should pay. You are taking an unfair advantage of your competition.

      In cases with out merit. Lawyers should spend some time in jail.

      1. Buddy, lawyers often do get sanctioned for cases that are frivolous but sometimes clients say one thing and the truth is another. But, I think the sanctions for bringing a knowingly frivolous case should be more severe.

        1. Im in agreement Moondog but as I have said before a thousand times trucks have not changed since the 2nd millenium. Funny you shifted to electric because this in the end really comes down to EV vs Oil and all the shit inbetween is going to be our milk and cereal to chew on at breakfast.

          I for one know automakers are lazy which is why they all went bankrupt. They have no drive to do better and anything against them frivilous or not is my sanctuary of bliss that sticks it to the Oil man. Did you know Tesla is not allowed to have stores in Texas? How frivilous is that. But too late, I know Tesla is a success, I have seen and read enough to know they will outgrow the auto bums like Ford and GM, even Toyota. The guy already solved a crisis in Australia when no one else could. Wasnt Toyota that saved them. And he is creating space travel, his vehicles are already a success despite what others think and think they can, all they want to.

          I hate my Tundra and I said it before I bought it. It is the best piece of garbage available and its like sitting on a dinasour. Toyota should call it fckyoursorass. Might be considered a gay dinasour but I digress and not that there is anything wrong in that but I digress.

          Anything to stab these companies for laziness or cheating is all but welcome. They charge us through the nose for performance and leave midsize trucks playing catchup for 20 years like a bastard child to the 1/2 ton. And we lost the small truck. I despise the current truck industry. Hate it with a passion. They say divorce cost money and if it does I am ready to pay. I want a divorce. Bring on the Tesla pick up and W15 and B1. I will buy it.

          Like I said this is good news for me, music to my ears.

          1. Again, electric is coming. It will happen. But, when? Just kidding about the Tundra, BTW. You know I’m an unashamed Toyota fanboy. Peace and best to you, my friend.

            1. Moondog I quote you and welcome your arguements. “Again electric is coming. It will happen. But when?”

              Before I answer that Moondog lets understand the frustration here. Without the reuse of global warming automakers will never change. It is environmentalists forcing companies to build better otherwise you will continue to drive a midsize truck that is a bastard to the 1/2 ton. We will continue to pay through the fcking nose to gain 20HP and save another mpg until we are 6 feet under pushing daisies. Auto companies will continue to sell you 1 mpg saving and small hp gains like a chimp jumping for joy throwing their bananas away for eternity. Like I said trucks were faster 25 years ago and we praise the new Raptor like its a powerful beast sent by god from heaven above. HP is cheap moondog, we are being scammed by this industry, Tesla has proved it beyond a doubt for anyone with a brain

              Also, before I answer The CEO from Toyota admits they are late to the EV game and need to catch up. Let me put this in a way that people who speak english can understand it better. The CEO for Toyota admits they are lazy and complacent and are far behind and need to play catch up but we relize we may have fuked up bigtime. TFL’s friend Jalopnik has a good article for this. And Toyota admits that Elon is right and that their fuel cell hydrogen idea is stupid but you cant fix stupid so we cant dump the idea just yet.

              So when will it happen? It has happened Moondog. If I did not need a truck I would be in a Tesla Model X right now that does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. My daughter just bought the new SRT Durango and is kicking herself a bit but admits in 2-3 years she will buy Tesla. If Tesla had a truck I would own it. Once people like neighbors see someone with a Model 3 in their driveway it will catch on like rats mating in New York with an old lonely lady feeding them from a bakery store. Tesla will outgrow Toyota, experts are saying it. There worth with just a fraction of the sales that GM makes is almost half og GM’s profits. Meaning if the sell the volume of vehicles GM sells then their worth will be through the roof.

              When is now Moondog. Too late for greedy Texas Mobil and lazy automotive companies.

            2. Rambro – You show no respect for the hard work and dedication it has taken to get automobiles to the level they are today. They are marvels of engineering.

              Do you realize what is necessary to eek a single mpg increase in city driving? Do you know the number of factors that have to be taken into account hundreds of times a second to determine the proper injector pulsewidth, spark timing and duration, and intake and exhaust valve timing to strike a suitable compromise between power, efficiency, and emissions? That’s before you add in IAC and TB positions, boost pressure, and after treatments like urea.

              Electric vehicles are childs play (literally). They are simple and easy and that’s why they’ve been around forever. Any high school auto shop can make a Tesla or even an ice generator powered electric vehicle. It’s child’s play.

              These automotive geniuses have steered clear of electric cars, not because they can’t work, but because batteries have been insufficient for general use. You claim a model 3 is cheaper than a Civic. Great. But what about 20 years ago when the Honda Civic was $10k new and a battery pack was $200k?

              Battery electric vehicles have never been a good idea. They have become marginal at best for certain limited applications (2nd vehicle, daily driver, in a limited geographic area) and until a tremendous breakthrough in battery technology occurs, that isn’t going to change.

              When will the breakthrough happen? Maybe tomorrow, maybe never… It’s not done till it’s done. Hopes, dreams, and speculation is as tangible as the wind

            3. Well put Daniel.
              The hope put in electric vehicles is just that-we don’t have what we need yet to make them a reasonable replacement for ICE propulsion. It’s going to take a lot more than hope for that to change-read: lots of money.

          2. Rambro:
            The w15 is up for consumer sale now. I take it you’ve put your $1000.00 down for a pre-order? You’ve been waiting for this for awhile now… I’ve been reading this forum for a long time now and just had to ask given the recent announcement.

            Cheers

          3. Ford did not file for bankruptcy rambro.

            Tesla is not a success if they keep receiving government money which they do. Getting 7500$ federal money for buying a car is not success.

            Crises in Australia ? I’ve must have missed that. I wonder what Elon did to evert the fall of Australia?

            I believe I red where his rocket didn’t make it with them satatlites just a couple days ago. Maybe he needs to get a couple pointers from that nk dictator.

            Rambro I really come to the conclusion that you are filled with hate and bitterness with products we have today. And I’m guessing you will be the same when the electric vehicle comes. To me electric vehicle is something that I really have NO desire for.

          4. Rambro, you are so far off-based it is incredible. First of all, not all automakers went “bankrupt.” Just two in the US. That leaves many others. Auto makers are not lazy…you “for one” might think you know, but you don’t. Automakers have to work very hard to balance styling, ride quality, handling, speed, and capability with other objectives like safety, fuel economy, and emissions compliance. At times automakers don’t put out a winner – see Pontiac Aztec, etc…but just like award-winning musicians, not everything is a hit. Millions are spent by analysts, who survey owners on what they like and dislike…what went wrong and what went right. The aggregated data is used to make improvements. Stylists are at the mercy of engineers, accountants, and mpg goals. It is a very difficult business to be in, and automakers are all doing a pretty good job for the most part now.

            Tesla does business in a manner that does not comply with Texas law. That is why they can’t have a “store” there. Some states want fair competition in the auto industry, but Tesla wants full control. Good for Texas.

            As for your Tundra, it may be the best vehicle for you but that hardly makes it the best. No automotive magazine ranks the Tundra anywhere near the top of the pickup pile. Typically, it competes for last place with the Nissan. Doesn’t make either a bad vehicle, just means they aren’t as good as they could be. And yes, there is something wrong with gay, in my opinion.

            Pickups have changed drastically in the past 20 years. What do you want? They are larger, have more power, more reliable, and more efficient than EVER before. They have more payload and towing capacity than EVER before. They have some of the nicest interiors on the market, and ride very well. I cannot believe you are stuck on these cheesy start-up companies who cannot begin to put together a quality, proven vehicle if their life depended on it. If the Workhorse truck wasn’t electric, no one in a million years would ever buy it. It is an ugly piece of plastic trash. And the fact that it is electric means it has a payload that is no better than your average half-ton, but tows less than even the weakest of half-tons. Combine that with a high price and limited range…come on, why do you keep acting like this thing is some kind of miracle truck? It is vastly inferior to every other truck on the market. I’d rather drive a 20-year old Silverado than a brand-new W-15.

            1. Troverman, Rambro is obsessed with electric vehicles because he is a zealot. Your words, while largely accurate and well thought out, are wasted on people like him. He has no real objectivity. This is why he obsessively thread jacks almost every article’s comment board to make it about EV trucks, and EV technology.

            2. Electric vehicles does not mean all electric.

              Electric car means electric drive, where the wheels are turned by electric motors.

              What supplies the electricity will be gas and diesel for a long time. But these vehicles will just use much less gas and diesel because they will be more efficient than mechanical drive.

      2. Buddy – – –

        BU: “Stop calling people who want clean air and water liberals.”

        I want clean air and water too, as appropriate, and I’m hardly a liberal. We should bear in mind that if the planet’s population continues from 7 billion to 100 billion (which I hope it doesn’t), the definition of “clean” for both air and water may be a bit elastic, regardless of how we provide power and energy for our lives. We may have to simply, one day, get another planet…(^_^)..

        =================

        1. Bernie Tesla is the only one working on finding another planet. Literally not kidding. Check out space X. And he saved Australia from major power outages in just 60 days wich no one else could do for decades now. Problem solved in 60 days. He bet he would have it done in 100 days or it was free. No one believed it so he got the contract and solved it in 60 days. He is also working on cheap space travel and currently sells his Model 3 for cheaper to own than a Civic that allows you to travel on free energy at any of his 6800 charge stations.

          1. Oh saved Australia from a total black out. Mercy what a amazing man he is. Now if we can get him to fix are power grid. Then man would be a flipping genius!

            Another planet to Liv on is a farse. You and I would be long dead before that will happen.

            1. Thank you, Marc. Musk is an innovator, but basically has been making a lot of empty promises and relying on massive government grants and loans to get his capital. Our wonderful former president decided we didn’t need NASA and we’d privatize space exploration. Didn’t take Musk long to start “capitalizing” on the large amount of government capital available. So far, Space-X has done nothing but send a few rockets into orbit, and one or two to the ISS…none of them manned. Just like his cars, he’s talking big about sending people to Mars, but it won’t be happening anytime soon. Nasa sent people to the moon in the 1960’s but Musk can’t even get a person into space in 2018. What a success!

            2. The biggest success Elon musk done is how to get government money and that is how you become successful.

      3. This has nothing to do with clean air and water (ultimately we all want that -right?). This is about grabbing money, plain and simple.

      1. I’m sure I can find utube video that why I’m not gm fan or ram fan. Not sure what this has to do with this article.

    15. When it was ram and their Diesel gate. All posters above this post scrutinized Ram till no end. Now that it’s Ford, “this is bull, no way, can’t be true” etc……..
      Ford fan club is funny.
      😂😂😂

      1. But there is difference opinions. Government went after ram. For Ford it is the owners. I know you have some intelligence. please use some. The owners are riding on the backs of the EPA to get money. How sad you don’t see this. Now if you are ram or gm fan this is going to concern you when it comes to buying that dsl, because what ever happens in court could end up effecting you the buyer.

    16. You wish it was liberals in charge right now. Liberals keep me from doing all what I want.
      Then in the 21st century, my pupils (Leftists), have gotten charge of the Liberals. My Leftists are in all the leadership positions now.
      Liberals have way too much in common with family people. But my Leftists want everyone to be single, and reliant on the big federal government under my top Leftist leader.
      To do so, I have to beat back the Liberals(not to mention the family and conservatives).
      Do you all hear me up there from down here?

    17. Well I’ve red most of the blogs and the settement is to be a scam. I would also agree, but I’m not surprised. I am surprised that it took this long to happen. And you all knew Ford would be next. So we move to the next article and wait and see what kinda of judge he or she will be on the ruling.

    18. With the exception of one or two people here, what was failed to realize is the EPA did not start this. The EPA, has nothing to do with this, with the GM Duramax and Ram Cummins lawsuit. This is a lawyer based lawsuit only. No federal agency has said any of the names I listed were cheating emissions. Sure we can go after the EPA and their standards, but they are not saying anyone cheated. The only 2 vehicles I know of that were announced by the EPA is VW and fca with the ecodiesel. That’s it. And they made a public statement. This is a lawyer group trying to get more money from companies with a lot of it.

      1. Yea jj , but some government agency started it and now the lawyers are riding the coat tails or these owners. So I would disagree with your assessment EPA started it.

      2. Jimmy is right-this is not the EPA’s doing. Sure, they enabled the lawyers, showed them what was possible but blame needs to ride soley where it belongs-with our litigious (getting something for very little effort) society.

    19. The real interesting thing to me is the 500,000 number. I haven’t been able to find much info on F150 vs F250/350/450 production numbers.

      So if this includes all 2011-2017 F250 and F350 powerstrokes, that puts F250/350 at somewhere around 100k annually. So if Ford makes 800-900k F-series trucks each year, that puts a very small % as HD powerstrokes. Can that be true? Of course i’m still missing F450 and all HD gas.

      Compared to the Ram recall (1.8 million mostly HD gas and diesel over the same time frame) that would roughly put Ram HD cummins sales figures at least double Ford HD powerstroke sales?

      Am I way off on this?

          1. Sounds about right then, as that number would could include all F-series powerstrokes (F450 and potentially any ambulance/transit trucks?) whereas this is only F250-F350. So 3-4 model years = 500k for all F-series = 125-167k F-series PS/year. Lawsuit = 500k F250/F350 PS over 6/7 model years = 70-80k per year. So somewhere around 100k annual for F250/350/450 pickups with 6.7 powerstroke give or take

    20. I think if Ford is or Bosch is screwing around for some kind of advantage,sue there assess,but if its just another sue happy individual toss them in jail and case out of court.We do need regulations to keep people honest but dont crossover and over regulate..imo

    21. The class-action lawsuit brought by F-250 and F-350 owners alleges that Ford and supplier Robert Bosch GmbH worked together to mask the nitrogen oxides and particulate emissions of F-Series Super Duty diesels built between 2011 and 2017, in violation of the Clean Air Act. The suit goes on to claim that Bosch software allowed Ford to alter engine parameters to help achieve optimum emissions during EPA testing, but in the real world, the engines produced more power with less fuel while emitting over 50 times the legal limit of greenhouse gases and particulate matter.

      I hope Ford didn’t do anything stupid. I don’t want Ford to go out of business. That would bring pricing for the rest of the industry to the completely ridiculous level. Even I will never buy a ford, I am not happy what’s happening.

      1. I’m surprised you didn’t make a comment about making more power in the real world after the super Ike performance. That right there should put a nail in the coffin lol.

        1. Honestly, I don’t really care about power anymore. All the engines are powerful enough for me include 3L ecodiesel and 3L powerstroke, except basic 3.3 and 3.6.
          I am after reliability and efficiency.

      2. Zviera, that is almost the same wording on the Cummins and Duramax lawsuits. The Cummins one said the emissions were so high it causes damage to the system which I don’t believe at all. Sounds just like some people have some high repair bills and don’t want to pay for it.

        1. I don’t know Jimmy. It’s disturbing. Hopefully Ford will solve this issue at least as FCA did.
          Does the make any sense to you ?
          Bosch is accused of developing software that enabled Ford to adjust fuel levels, exhaust gas re-circulation, air pressure and urea injection rates while being tested for emissions by regulators including the EPA and California Air Resources Board.

          The formula built by Ford and Bosch allowed the Super Duty trucks to reverse the traditional order of exhaust treatment, putting catalytic reduction before the diesel particle filter. This allowed Ford to market both fuel efficiency and power in its vehicles without compromise. The reordering should have forced Ford to burn off the collected particles, sapping the vehicles’ efficiency. Instead the particles were released through the vehicles’ exhaust, according to the complaint.
          I don’t know ,if lawyers are stupid ,or they really have any case in here.
          I hope that ford will solve this issue , without any substantial damage .

    22. Does anyone else think that it’s an odd coincidence that right after ford announces that there will be a new diesel powered f150 coming this spring. A new lawsuit surfaces against all other late model ford diesel pickups. Even though the lawsuit is brought on behalf of ford diesel owners, that does not mean that this lawyer group might not have been influenced by another manufacturer or two. the sad part is, in America you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. we all know that many of the people who were going to order that new diesel f150 as soon as they could, will probably now take a wait and see attitude because of this lawsuit. Why now? Why right now?

    23. These aren’t real truck owners, these are just cucks. A true truck owner and a real man wouldn’t complain about diesel emissions like soft ultra-left gutless cucks often do. They’d actually delete these damn trucks.

    24. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.torquenews.com/106/ford-has-built-half-million-f-series-trucks-67l-powerstroke-v8/amp
      Read the 2nd paragraph of this article, written 9/30/2013. Ford installed its 500,000th Powerstroke diesel in an early 2014 F 250 Super Duty, in just over 3 model years, 2011, 2012 & 2013 plus the beginning of 2014; more than 3 yrs ago. How many more Powerstoke SDs were sold in the last 3+ years? Probably another 500,000? I don’t get where the lawyers got their number, either.

    25. Could be that the lower output commercial cab and chassis werent affected.
      Considering Ford’s fleet sales that could be a lot of vehicles.

    26. In California 14,001 lbs and above do not require smog check.

      Maybe because of the lack of any background testing they are just leaving the cab and chassis out of the lawsuit.

    27. I don’t understand why a single person in the demographic that drives these trucks would give a honking hoot about emissions, unless these trucks are being tested for emissions and failing state inspections.

    28. Trump needs to get rid of these red tape regulations; remove all the def/egr/dpf garbage and let’s make diesels great again!

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