• Is Ram EcoDiesel EPA Emissions Investigation the Next Nail in the Coffin of Diesel Light Trucks? [Op/Ed]


    Ram 1500 EcoDiesel V6

    You have likely heard about the ongoing Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) investigation into the FCA Ram EcoDiesel and Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel emissions. The EPA case alleges that FCA used and did not disclose turbo-diesel engine management software (in their EcoDiesel vehicles) that may cause excessive harmful emissions in many real-world driving conditions. FCA claims that it has done nothing illegal and offered that the EPA take a look at all the software.

    2017 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel trucks are still undergoing a thorough emissions evaluation in the United States until such time that the EPA certifies the trucks as compliant to emissions regulations. A recent report by the Detroit News quotes FCA’s CEO, Sergio Marchionne, as saying that the EPA case is making progress and resolution for the 2017 vehicle sales should be found “relatively quickly”.

    While this is very positive news to all turbo-diesel fans out there, Sergio also made a few grim statements about the future of turbo-diesels in light trucks and passenger vehicles.

    A report by Wards Auto quotes Sergio as saying:

    I’m going to give you one number that should shock the living daylights out of you. If you look at the transition to move 80% of our diesel engine families to the next level of compliance for Euro 6 in Europe it’s a half-billion euro ($531 million).

    These are not variable costs. These are base technology injections and the development of all the strategies to comply with Euro 6 in the final form in Europe. That’s a big number. That’s something that we don’t carry with gasoline engines. We don’t have such massive technology intervention requirements with gasoline engines that we have with diesel. What’s going to kill diesel, it seems to me, is this continuous drain on capital and this continuous skepticism about its value to society. In this latest round of events, without mentioning competitors, have made this an incredibly undesirable product although its usefulness is beyond doubt.

    $531 million is a huge sum of money to bring diesel engines into regulatory compliance. This does not discuss the next level of U.S. emissions standards, but the costs would be similar. Can companies like FCA, GM, Ford, and others afford these high costs to continue to sell turbo-diesel vehicles in Europe, United States, and elsewhere?

    Currently, the answer is “yes”. Ford recently announced a 2018 F-150 with a 3.0-liter Power Stroke V6 engine. There are still strong rumors of a turbo-diesel powered 2018 Jeep Wrangler (“JL”). GM has made a commitment to several diesel-powered cars and crossovers (2017 Chevy Cruze, 2018 Chevy Equinox, and the 2018 GMC Terrain). Mazda is planning a turbo-diesel CX-5 for United States as well.

    Will we see all these diesels on the American roads within the next year or two? I am starting to get more and more pessimistic.

    I have been a strong believer and proponent of diesel vehicles. However, the VW TDI scandal and new information in this article are making me think, this is the next nail in the coffin of small diesel vehicles.

    Here is my personal 2002 Chevy Silverado HD 2500 with the Duramax turbo-diesel V8. (I also own a 2002 VW Gold TDI.)


    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov
    Andre Smirnov is an Automotive Enthusiast, Producer, Reviewer, Videographer, Writer, Software Engineer, Husband, Father, and Friend.

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    123 thoughts on “Is Ram EcoDiesel EPA Emissions Investigation the Next Nail in the Coffin of Diesel Light Trucks? [Op/Ed]

    1. @Andre Smirnov,
      Lack of diesels is a US phenomenon . Despite what Sergio has said Diesels are growing Globally.
      No shortage of new ones coming onto the market.
      Euro6 compliance has been reached by Fiat for their Truck Division and also Vans

    2. Small diesels will thrive. Sergio is just maintaining his deceitful stance. FCA sales were over 100 billion last year. That half billion in costs is a drop in the bucket.

      VW and FCA are full of crap. There’s plenty of compliant diesels out there that don’t make us breath poison. They lie, they cheat and it’s all for the sake of their profits. Hey, why make the diesels clean when you can just cheat. It’s cheaper. You make your competition look bad and steal their sales. Toss this dick in jail.

      1. I partially agree. The Ford 6.7 scorpion diesel has been remarkably reliable as has the last couple generations of duramax. It’s possible to meet the standards and still have a product people want. The problem is still cost. It’s easy to rationalize an $8000 diesel upcharge on a $70,000 truck, it gets tougher to remain competitive against gas engines in smaller vehicles. The emissions equipment also severely reduces the inherent fuel economy advantage of the diesel.

        1. The point is that fca did not HAVE to cheat. They need to play by the same rules and if the result is that the engine is not as spectacular as it first was advertised as, so be it.

          1. What is not considered is the fact that the ecodiesel get twice the fuel mileage as most gas trucks. So therefore it can put out twice the pollution and be as efficient

        2. Agreed. We went through this with gasoline 40 years ago. Emissions equipment reduced fuel economy and increased costs. It’ll work out for diesel too.

          Diesel used to suck. Now diesels are great. People will still buy them. They’ll still have better gas mileage than gasoline. Yes, they’ll be more money. Hybrids are more money too yet they sell pretty well now too. 28% of crude oil is diesel. 45% is gasoline. There will always be a need for diesel engines to keep balance. Otherwise it has to be stored.

        3. Comparing the FCA half-ton Ecodiesel to engines used in heavy duty pickups is a bit apples to oranges. I believe they fall under different sets of regulations. The upcoming 3.0L in the F-150 will be a better comparison.

          1. I believe you to be correct Bill. A class 2 and 3 truck should have a different emissions level than a class 1 truck. Even the Class 4 F450 and F550 have a different exhaust configuration than the 250-450 superduty. The new F150 diesel as you say would be a more appropriate comparison.

            1. OK so the eco DSL from ram is what 4500$ option? What do you think it will be 20 yrs from now based on what the trend is on the heavy duty trucks are? My guess double. This applies to all DSL half tons when that will happen.

        1. I believe 20 billion in the US alone. They have lawsuits around the globe also. Dont know that figure but im sure its not cheap.

          1. @Jimmy Johns
            That sort of fine would wipe FCA out. Non Diesel, cheating of Mitsubishi was too much for them to bear and they subsequentially purchased by Nissan

        1. Jr I like to see you do this test, but you will not because it is such idiotic thing to say. Does it matter if you die faster with gas over DSL?

          1. The point is that it doesn’t produce much pollution. This isn’t thirty years ago, and the current standards are ridiculously expensive for tiny improvements in particulate emissions.

        2. not really. with gas you pretty much pass out and wake up with a bad headache. I suppose if you run your car long enough to consume all of the oxygen you could dye but not like it was years ago.

      2. Why epa won’t go after Cummins? Cummins are dirty, noisy and smell bad. Answer is: it produced in America. Why EPA goes after Ecodiesel engine(it’s quiet, clean and doesn’t smell at all) ? Because it made in italy

    3. Sounds like Sergio is trying to justify the emissions cheating by saying what he did. In fact it looks like he is admitting to cheating and knowinly doing so because to be compliant it will be too expensive. FCA and VW are just making it harder for everyone else trying to be compliant. This will put a big bullseye on the baby Duramax and I’m sure the new Ford diesel will be under severe scrutiny since it is a new release.

    4. The following is all conjecture and opinion…

      With the new Administration gutting the EPA, FCA may just have to wait a bit longer to get their wrist slapped and continue doing business as usual in the U.S. Meanwhile, with EPA being neutered, Ford and GM will get lax on their truck emissions since they have no interest in Euro standards. FCA will continue to develop diesels to meet Euro standards.

      If U.S. survives another four years, the Administration will change, EPA will regain power, and FCA will be ahead of the game with their diesels.

      The above is just opinion, not facts, so don’t get your undies misaligned! :p

      1. Ford & GM both sell diesels in Europe, so they won’t be getting too lax. These companies are far from naive and monitor the political scene intensively. I’d be willing to bet all major car companies had a “Hillary Plan” as well as a “Trump Plan” which would dictate their short term plans.

        By the way, the U.S. is going to do better under this new administration then it has done in years.

        Just my opinion.

    5. Mercy you guys come on!? each time the governments in pose some dam regulations on any engines it drives up cost, that is fact! Sergio is letting you DSL fans out there know, if you want a DSL you are going to pay for it.
      Since I’m ford fan let’s look at the cost of DSL over time. When 7.3 power stroke came out it was about 4 to 4500$ option you look at the current DSL now it has doubled in price. Now tell me how can Sergio be wrong what he has said on how much it will make the DSL complaint? Sergio is making a case that he has to please all these dam governments to make an DSL engine complaint. I’m certain what he is saying is valid. 500+ million is lot of money to shell out for a clean DSL, will you pay for extra cost for that clean DSL. Sergio is betting that you will not.
      You are all reading right now on these blogs and other web posts that people are starting to go back to gas engines because of up front cost.

      It sad that have to read on here that Sergio is made out to be competent and don’t know what he is talking about. That is interpretation I’m getting from some of you’s on here. This is not Sergio either having to deal with all the regulations it is all the manufacturers.

      Expect all DSL engines to keep going up in price. I don’t think it will level out anytime soon.

      1. I fear you are correct. The diesel option already expensive ($12,000 for the ram 900lb tq). Before people bought diesel because they wanted it. I think we will see a diesel option as for those that need it. But we may see a future with larger gas engines again like the GM 8.1L Ford similar size or something in that area.

        1. Just one more reason to gut the EPA. Trump needs to clean house and get all the progressives out if we want to be free of their abuses.

        2. The cost of the diesel is nothing. You get it back when you sell it. And the fuel cost savings are enormous. Calculate the difference we did. We went from 3500 gas chevies at 8 mph to ford 450 at 15.

    6. We are living in an age of a baffled ignorant and clueless society. An educated person only has to look to the UK to see the problems the diesel motor will bring to America and Canada. You think the diesels are clean but they are only that way until all these systems get old and start to fail plus people cheat the system and use themselves or illegitimate garages to pass emissions tests and modifications. One car can affect 1000’s of motorists and pedestrians and 1000 will affect 1 million people. Humans are so weak and trapped in our own train of thought and what is advantageous to us we just block out the reality. The reality is that diesel vehicles will continue to sell fuel to support the lobbiests interests who support FCA and others. They have to meet café requirements. And Andre, Mazda was forced to sell diesel. They are not bringing diesel in to their vehicles because they want to. Their avg mpg is much higher than any other manufacturer. So its either make a battery car or revert to diesel to keep their avg mpg low or suffer the fines. The same way the intelligent phased out smoking the best they could so as to not interfere with those who do not we will prevail with the combustion engine as well. The epa will eventually force vehicles to use electric because they have billionaires backing them hence the tax on the diesel and the hard line to make it uncompetitive. Otherwise us idiots would just buy into it and create an environmental nightmare. If all manufacturers push electric rather than diesel we will be light years ahead because its going to happen anyway as even diesel will not meet the upcoming epa café requirements. Battery has already proven to be more powerful than any combustion engine, even freight trains run on batteries, entire mines are running on batteries. We need to put our focus on infrastructure to make the battery vehicle increase its range by adding fuel cell stations that swap batteries just like you trade a propane tank in. If all companies focus on that instead of this barbaric push for diesel then we as a society will be light years ahead and avoid an epidemic.

      1. So why does government have subsided battery cars ? Because they are to expensive. They couldn’t sell any if there wasn’t any rebates. Gas is still the cheapest way to power are vehicles.
        One more thing we have to figure out how to make more electric and government is making it difficult to do that to.

        You see how government has interviewed in are lives? All in name of protect are selves , because we are all to dam incompetent to do so.

        1. Marc. Tesla has released all its patents to everyone in hopes to get all manufacturers on board. When the electric car becomes popular the prices drop. Tesla cars are not that expensive in base forms. The more popular they get the cheaper they will be. This push for diesel is a step backwards. FCA should be pushing an electric truck, not a diesel, along with other manufacturers. There heads are on ass backwards. On my vacation I saw Tesla,a plugged in to charging stations at hotels. Imagine if you could just swap a battery? Hopefully Workhorse will produce the first all electric pick up for 2018 and it takes off. Government subsidies are always welcome in order to kickstart a better thing

          1. Better thing only in your mind. Electric vehicles are NOT better. Swappable batteries? Anybody got a fork truck to swap the 500-lb battery pack in a pickup truck? Sounds great! Or maybe the pack you get swapped in is faulty, has some dead cells?

            Never in a million years would I want my tax dollars subsidizing a chain of electric chargers along US highways to help line the pockets of companies like Tesla and others. You sure sound like a Canadian.

            1. Troverman, so you would rather have your money going into the healthcare system to support all the health problems caused by diesel motors in the future and live with pollution vs clean air. People eat in restaurants now without second hand smoke. Just the wave of the future and your going to pay for batteries whether you like it or not in my opinion because you cannot continue to pollute the air that others are breathing. Combustion engines will be phased out.

              Changing a battery is done by automated machines. You do not lift the battery LOL. The car will pull into the station and automated machines will read your credit card without even stepping out of the vehicle and switch your battery faster than you can fill your tank with fuel. Getting a bad battery is the same as getting a bad propane tank. The expired tanks are recycled and include in the cost to everyone. You get a bad battery, you bring it back and get a new one at no additional charge. Software can determine if the battery is good or not before it is given to you.

              Companies all need to get on board to create only a few types of batteries so that they are universally exchangeable. This is what companies need to be focused on and working with the government. This is why the government will continue to tax the sh!t out of these DSL motors and continue to increase the café requirements to force these companies to change in order to stop pollution. Just a matter of time and creating a diesel is a waste of time that in the end will be obsolete, except will aid as a generator for awhile until that is phased out as well.

              Right now in the mines up North the underground 150,000Lb loaders drive up beside a fuel cell station and automated mechanical equipment swap the batteries out for freshly charged batteries within a few seconds and the machine takes on full charge. No diesel involved. Just the hydro lines recharge the mines batteries. No pollution so they save costs by not having to vent the mines of clean air. Just a low volume of air exchange for breathing and removing dust after a blast.

          2. Don’t get me started on Elon musk(Tesla). He is the biggest recipient of millions of goverment dollars to start a electric car company. Now you look at the big 3. Did they ever get millions of goverment money from starting up there car company’s? No they didn’t! Elon musk is raking it in on the believe that you will buy his electric cars. This is NOT the way free market works. Taking away from me or you to start something that people are not interested in buying. And I’m certainly not interested in buying some dam electric car or truck that I have already payed for. Most people are buying electric cars on believe It is going to save the plant. Probably just like you. The dam plant is just fine and it doesn’t need saved by handful of electric vehicles that it isn’t amount to hill of beans to the plant.
            If the electric car was so dam great Elon musk would not need any government money to make them and he would be selling them like hot cakes, but that isn’t the case.

            Me thinks the electric car will play out until the government money drys up. And rate we are going it might happen pretty quick like.

            1. @Marc Hartman
              Very much agree with you. In China different scenario, most cities are extremely polluted, so the Chinese are very interested in Electric vehicles. Probably has spurred VW ‘s investment in EV Cars, Trucks and batteries. China is a big market for VW

            2. Marc, Elon from my understanding and from the publics viewpoint in general is not here to make profits. The things he designs are to make the world a better place. He could have retired years ago like his partner in the beginning. Elon needs the the help in this case because he cannot build the required infrastructure alone. If he is getting help from the government then it is well served and welcomed by the majority of society who want to make the planet a better place. I don’t care what is said about global warming. I know for a fact I breath in shit from exhaust fumes every day that I would not have to breath in should electric be adopted. Even when I floor my own brand new truck or a brand new rental I get the backwash wind that carries that smell and sh!t right into the cab of my vehicle and its fowl. And I see the smog it makes in large cities and the elderly die every year from smog pollution and if it doesn’t kill the younger generation, they will develop health problems from fuel smog to varies degrees dependant on their sensitivities.

            3. Marc,many big farmers and big oil co.receive subsidies as well that they don’t need to receive.At least Mr. Musk is trying to help us wing off foreign oil from countries that hate us…

      2. Rambro,

        I’m an ‘educated person’ and not all of what you are saying is true. The problem with smog and particulate in Europe (and Asia) cannot be blamed on diesel as a fuel. One factor few people think about is geography. European population density is higher than just about anywhere in the world, yet they enjoy a high standard of living…meaning everyone has a car. Diesel was pushed on them decades ago because vehicles use less of it than they would gasoline. The average age of vehicles in Europe is almost 10 years. Diesel emissions have only recently started to actually become very clean through the use of DPF and SCR, as well as more advanced engine controls. So what you have is an old fleet in Europe without these technologies, and a lot of them! Combine that with extremely high population density and potential geographic phenomena and you end up with smog.
        Quick lesson: DPF stops solid particulate by almost 98% compared to a vehicle without one. No more black smoke. No more hidden tiny particulate. SCR removes NOx almost completely. DOC units remove the diesel smell. Guess what – SCR systems and DPF systems do not “get old” and stop working…without stopping the car from working too. If a DPF plugs or cracks, the engine will either not run or it will trip a myriad of sensors sending fault codes to the computer and limit the engine’s power. SCR systems will cause the truck to only idle when they stop working.

        And by the way, US cities like LA and Salt Lake (and others) experience major smog events too…despite having far fewer diesel vehicles on the road, and an older fleet.

        Stop blaming the problem on modern diesels. They are costly because of emission controls, but they are excellent engines.

        1. Troverman, people cheat these systems and the garages help. It only takes a few cars to cause problems to many. And everything breaks, so you will pay for it in the end should you try to maintain a diesel vs gas. In the future diesel will not be able to meet the café requirements regardless, so it is a mute point and a waste of energy to phase in a diesel when everything is going to go to electric. Companies will be fined so heavily for selling a combustion engine that you will be able to purchase two electric cars for the price of a combustion engine should these idiotic manufacturers continue to not adopt electric. Trump will not stop that, his power is limited the same way Obama was. Smog is a realistic issue and people have the power and can see the problem and breath it in for proof. The combustion engine has to go.

          1. What is this “café” you keep referencing? CAFE means corporate average fleet economy. “Café” is a french restaurant.

            I’m not paying for people’s healthcare either. Perhaps you haven’t been following…America voted to do away with socialist medicine. Healthcare is absolutely NOT a universal right. You get sick, pay for it or die. Can’t pay for it? Get a job.

            ICE engines do NOT have to go, and they will not go. We already have a fantastic infrastructure in place for refueling them. Refueling stations are not publicly funded.

            I’m also thinking of all the small towns with mom & pop fuel stations. I’m sure they’ll all be equipped with the latest battery change-put technology.

            Electric has received a ton of subsidization from the gov. As someone else pointed out, that’s because there is not enough demand and too many compromises. What advantage does an electric vehicle offer over an ICE vehicle? None. Basically, they have less range, long recharge times, limited infrastructure to recharge, high prices, and no character. The improvements we have seen to date are only resultant of the mother’s milk the EV industry has been steadily receiving from the gov. Trump is a businessman. I hope he pulls the teat out.

            1. Troverman you are policing English. If u can red ths thn u now wt ws sed, srry I id nt captlz Cafe fr u

              Another thing. If you don’t care that people who get sick die than why do you care about a ma and pa shop that sells oil. Seriously you need to back off on what suits your argument and now fail safeing yourself to English errors. Whatever floats your boat I guess. Diahrea is hard to paddle in though.

              And Tesla cars are far more advanced than anything the auto industry sells. Their vehicles make Fords and GM look like prehistoric dinasours. Like looking into a time capsule. Just take a look at what Tesla is doing on their websites. Most people don’t see it. Infrastructure is their only problem and the power is shifting. As you said government is pushing it and Trump can’t stop that. Majority of people will win out in the end. I agree with a lot of what Trump is doing but he knows profits don’t come right away. Electric in the end is a better and cheaper choice for all of us given time. Majority Senate and Congress will keep the EPA in tact if Trump were to try anything. But I doubt he will once he reviews what is already in place and taking place.

              A few babies like you will yell and scream but it won’t stop what is coming. Diesel is just another delay and if FCA wants to cry about it then they can. If they want to build electric and get on board then the government will welcome it. Otherwise pay pay pay until it hurts so bad they will keep over in a grave, which may already happen to FCA depending on this outcome.

          2. RAMBRO ,I agree with most of your statements.I would add burning chemicals that are mixed in diesel fuel and def, normally applied on orchards and vineyards,such as sulfur for pest control and urea as a fertlizer.These chemicals I have alot of experience with.These cause skin irritaion,breathing issues,headaches etc.New diesels are cleaner burning but still not as safe as made out to be,when using diesel.Here in So cal big rigs are using cng and its made an impact.L.A is less polluted compared to 80s-90s,we can see the sky and the hills alot better..

        2. @Troverman
          Pollution in LA is frightening. You see the hills around LA disappear around 5pm. Traffic is a constant moving traffic jam, engines do not operate efficiently under such conditions.

          1. Robert,you must be looking at videos or photos from 80s or 90s ,I live in So Cal and pollution is nothing like years ago , Cng use in metro buses,waste man.rigs,schools buses .

            Hybrids and many cleaner burning vehicles have also helped the pollution issues .

            1. @AM
              Was there in 2004, it was pretty bad.
              ” Free flowing traffic” is a oxymoron in LA.
              Worse traffic jams outside of Asia,

            1. There are 150,000 lb wheel loaders underground that run on batteries with no generator. No diesel. Because they put the infrastructure in place to swap out batteries for the electric motors. The trains run on electric motors not the diesel generators. Eventually you won’t need the diesel generator with the new advancements coming out.

        1. @Robert of course traffic is bad ,thats not the point ..Point is pollution is way down even since 2004 ,it doesn’t go away over night its a gradual thing.I can see the sky now and the hills ,come see for your self..If you want smog go to Mexico city or Asia..

      3. So much ignorant crap in that rambling statement. Thanks, but I don’t need a bunch of ‘Top Men’ planning out my life and the choices I can make. You want to live like that? Go to some socialist utopia and leave the rest of us alone.

      4. Show me a freight train that runs on batteries. I’ve only seen ones that have huge diesel engines powering generators, to power electric motors. “The diesel engine drives the main alternator which provides the power to move the train. The alternator generates AC electricity which is used to provide power for the traction motors mounted on the trucks (bogies). In older locomotives, the alternator was a DC machine, called a generator.
        – Diesel Locomotive Technology

    7. The real problem lies with the fact that the regulatory agencies have managements running these bodies who’s goal is to eliminate the burning of fossil fuel, that means Gasoline and Diesel. Despite the advanced emission systems on current vehicles, that will never be enough. Unless there is a political will to rein this in, these environmental regulatory bodies will continue on their path of killing your internal combustion engine (ICE).

      Also, if they kill off the ICE with electric powered vehicles, the electric power consumed will be taxed probably at a higher rate than Gas or Diesel… As one smog station owner grumbled to me, its really all about the revenue and not about emission control…

      1. Ed, you are absolutely correct. But while a zero-emissions electric vehicle sounds perfect…there will still be environmental harm done to generate and store the power needed to operate the EV…and possibly more than an ICE vehicle fleet.

        1. Exactly. I used to work indirectly in the utility industry. I worked on the design of fossil fuel burning power plants, mostly coal and natural gas. of the two, coal is still the most efficient fuel for generating electricity. Don’t fall for all the nonsense about wind and solar power. Neither are reliable nor low enough cost to replace fossil fuels anytime soon. And nobody truly wants a nuclear power plant in their backyard. Switching to an all electric vehicle fleet isn’t all it’s cracked up to be…

        2. Batteries are 100% recyclable. Almost everything now is recyclable. What is not is the air I breath in after a brand new 2017 vehicle floors it to make it to the next light and I am consumed with fuel fumes throughout my entire vehicle and my 5 year grandchild saying that smells like poop yech! So her lungs are compromised now along with mine. I don’t want that for her future or for her kids. Infrastructure now when built is also carefully planned to not disturb the environment. There will be some pollution no doubt but in my opinion there is no way I can see that it is going to be anywhere near what oil and gas do to our environment and our health problems that cost us billions in taxes.

          1. No brand new 2017 vehicle that floors the accelerator is filling you and your grandkid’s lungs with fuel fumes. That is a load of baloney and you know it. I wish you and your family long lives and an enjoyable environment…but you aren’t going to be killed by modern vehicles. I drive a 2017 diesel (maybe you guessed I drive a diesel, lol) and you can floor it all day and there isn’t a spec of diesel smoke nor a hint of diesel smell out the tailpipes. DPF’s are extremely good these days. In fact, consider this: if I drove my 2017 diesel into LA on a smoggy day, the air coming out my tailpipe would absolutely be cleaner than what was drawn into the air intake, thanks to advanced EGR, DOC, SCR, and DPF systems.

            The guys ‘rolling coal’ are either running old, mechanically fueled diesel engines OR have installed a tuner and deleted their emissions system.

            The black, sooty, harmful smoke is generated by over-fueling the engine. Not all of the fuel is able to be combusted. The partially-burnt particulate matter makes it out of the exhaust as visible PM.

            The percentage of diesels rolling coal because of a deleted emissions system is very small as a whole. Not enough to remotely begin to affect air quality.

            I know farmers who spend year after year in the fields at the wheel of a tractor, with the exhaust stack right in front of their face. Many of these guys live to be 80 or 90 years old. And the tractors they were running had ZERO emissions equipment on them.

          2. that smog is from China blowing into ca. So are you going to force chicoms to drive electric vehicles? Good luck. Let me know how you make out.

            1. @Marc Hartman
              Smog is not from China( that is a bit of fake news) Somehow it manages to get concentrated over LA, but nowhere else in California. Chines are taking EV’s

            2. Nobody is forcing anything. If a child eats chocolate all day they eventually make themselves sick and have to be told to eat better; is the best analogy I can muster. Basically the world is sick and you are being offered a better choice as a society. Little individual peons will yell and scream but society as a majority have swallowed their pill and will pick electric given enough time to inform them that they cant keep eating candy all day. Just the way it is and the way its going.

            3. That is exactly the point I’m making Robert Ryan. All this smog talk is fake. I read lot rambro postings you would come to the conclusion that most of the Chinese people are dead or going to be dead tomorrow with the amount of smog they got. There is lot of 3rd world countries that could care less if there vehicles smoke or not. Do you think giving Elon musk several millions of dollars to make electric cars is going to make a difference to the plant? Not hardly. It isn’t going to make rambro live any longer if we make a bunch of electric cars, it might make him FEEL better.

              I wanna to make it very clear to all. I am for all clean air and water, but not government taken out of my wallet to achieve it. I believe the vehicles we got today is pretty dam good compared to what we had yesterday. Not because of regulations but because the auto manufacturers want clean air and water. They are going to sell that product with that in mind. Let the market decide what kinda of clean vehicle we should have not government!
              I have nothing against electric cars, just not on my dime.

            4. Marc Hartman, society has already spoken and want cleaner air in their cities. Government is making these environmental moves because of the vast majority of real world complaints. The government is pushing the CAFE requirements because society is pushing for it. Somebody has to be the parent and make things happen when their is a major issue at hand. Other countries have their own problems, such as China is so heavily populated they are almost condemned to do nothing but pollute otherwise they we be in a perilous situation and a lot of their living conditions and waterways are disgusting. They live in filth in many areas and their recourse to fix it is a far greater problem then ours. History can teach us and it has, hence environmental laws but as Trump put it the laws have to allow production. You can still be environmentally friendly and not take 10 years to get a permit, those frustrations are real and valid. Sucking in smog is also real and society as a whole has pushed government to do this, so it is you by majority that wants your tax money to go to electric. Otherwise protest against it and see how far you get. It is not one single person in government that determines where our taxes go. It is controlled by lobbyists and given enough complaints it is controlled by civilians. Electric is coming because we have billionaire lobbyists and civilians fighting for cleaner energy. Your tax dollars will therefore go to electric. Hence all the taxes on fuel and restrictions on diesel. The government controlled by these people wont let it happen any more. This in my opinion is what we are seeing. Obama even tried to shut down the coal miners but that is too fast too soon. That is why the auto industry needs to adopt electric but not all at once. The cars are cleaner but more abundant so the ratio stays the same or greater and pollution will never go away with the combustion engine.

          3. I don’t think battery power anything is the future… I think the future will be direct to power solar, hydro and magnetic friction… and this is coming from a 2016 EcoDiesel limited 4×4 with all the options owner bad ass truck…

            1. So do we know what is going to happen with the ecodiesel emissions? I own a 2016 4×4 ecodiesel, and I hear reflash,buyback,refund blah blah.

      1. We The People. Unfortunately we have shirked this most important responsibility, and let our country go. The inmates have been running it. Perhaps things will change…?

    8. @Jay B: like most federal agencies, the EPA is led by an administrator who is appointed by the President and approved by Congress. The federal goverent is a complicated system with many checks and balances, and is ultimately guided by Congress (not any one congressman, but the collective group made up of people that you, I, and everyone else voted for). It is easy to point fingers and blame the government for all that is wrong with the U.S., but ultimately it is we as a collective group who are to blame, as we are the ones who have elected our leaders.

      I wonder how many people actually look at the decision-making records of their Congressman/woman before they voted for/against them? Methinks not many. Too many people vote for the party and not the person, which is a good way to get what you didn’t ask for.

      Back on-topic….I wonder if the EPA considers emissions-per-mile-driven? That would give an advantage to diesels.

    9. Having lived in west germany from 1960-64 and traveled the free european countries I can tell you what is never mentioned.And they polluted worse than any diesel,it was all the two stroke powered cars and small trucks,and millions of motor scooters/small bikes.In asia/india etc,it’s even worse.Sure their diesels spewed out nasty stuff,but it damn sure wasn’t the main cause.

      We as a country have come a long way in cleaning up our air,and making all engines run cleaner.The sky isn’t falling,and it isn’t burning.We in America have and are doing our share.Go check out some third world countries than come back here and report. Don’t be so quick to condemn us and rush out to go all electric etc.Gas and diesel powered vehicles will be around HERE for a lot longer than some of you think.

    10. This may be the tip of the iceberg as I think the EPA will test gasoline engines while on the road. If they score a “hit”, it will be the shot heard around the world and a huge score for battery buggies.

      1. Battery buggies may be fine for city folk,but it doesn’t do squat for those of us that live out in the country. Add to that,the batteries don’t do well at all in cold winter temps,especially with the heater on,lights etc. Battery buggies are still not ready for primetime except in a city environment.

    11. I’m trying to put he 1/2 billion into perspective.
      For one, Toyota has a 3.1 billion dollar settlement for rusted truck frames.
      Second, how much did Ford spend on ecoBoost engine development? Might be around 1 billion?

      Any other figures we can use for comparison?

    12. EPA is finished as we knew it before November. Will it be perfect? No, there are many true bureaucratic believers that will be around forever. It can be brought under control if there is enough pressure by the voting public.

    13. I would not count the EPA out just yet. It really just depends on whether or not Trump does two terms. If he does then it will be years after a new administration coming on before they recover but when it happens – look out. Yes, a presidential appointee runs the agency but these high level career employees hold down the fort between appointments and have tremendous influence on them. They also will not forget what they feel will be the tough years and will be quite overzealous when they are turned loose again. Agencies are held accountable by congressmen oversight committees and must report on a regular basis. However, when one agency screws up all the attention is on them and the others get some breathing room. I agree our EPA has been out of control in some respects but we need a clean environment and maybe, just maybe, we can find some common ground.

      Unchecked corporations will do whatever they can to skirt regulations and make money. Anyone remember the Bhopal disaster in 1984? I know we are not talking diesel versus gas but that is a great example of an unchecked corporation with little to know environmental regs to worry about. This has been a great discussion and wouldn’t it be nice if some of our legislators and agencies actually listened to us?

        1. Stop killing trees. Trees and plants clean the air. NO one has mentioned this. For years, people have been complaining about killing the Rain forests, deforestation, etc. THAT is a necessary step that if overlooked, will be the end of civilization. Count on that.

    14. Lol on the electric car future! Just where do we plan on getting the rare earth minerals to build enough batteries to power the world? Yeah, didn’t think so…

      1. Not to mention generate that much more electricity to run everything. Solar and wind suck at least at this point of their existence, environmentalists shut down any new hydro dams. Abd nuclear fission leaves nasty waste behind. Until fusion power is realized on this planet i believe we’re stuck with fossil fuels.

        1. There are nuclear reactors that create little to no waste and are fully self regulating, but the uninformed public just associates nuclear power with Chernobyl, three mile island, and Fukushima so none of them get built.

          1. Used Nuclear Fuel and High-Level Radioactive Waste. A typical nuclear power plant in a year generates 20 metric tons of used nuclear fuel. The nuclear industry generates a total of about 2,000 – 2,300 metric tons of used fuel per year.
            Of particular concern in nuclear waste management are two long-lived fission products, Tc-99 (half-life 220,000 years) and I-129 (half-life 15.7 million years), which dominate spent fuel radioactivity after a few thousand years.
            Plutonium is the most dangerous material in the world. 4. There is a potential terrorist threat to the large volumes of radioactive wastes currently being stored and the risk that this waste could leak or be dispersed as a result of terrorist action. … Nuclear wastes are hazardous for tens of thousands of years.
            Radioactive isotopes eventually decay, or disintegrate, to harmless materials. Some isotopes decay in hours or even minutes, but others decay very slowly. Strontium-90 and cesium-137 have half-lives of about 30 years (half the radioactivity will decay in 30 years). Plutonium-239 has a half-life of 24,000 years.Apr 3, 2015
            Yeah, sounds pretty innocuous. NOT!

    15. I still have not found any articles indicating any of the FCA trucks or Jeeps with the Eco diesel that had actually failed there emissions test in their state not the new test procedures or the old procedures.

      Simply that the EPA found some alternate software in the truck that could potentially be used and could potentially cause more pollution then what is allowed.

      I sure wish we had some actual facts about the case or maybe a judgment before we go off hanging a company out to try.

      Whatever happened to innocent till proven guilty approach to journalism. FCA has been tried convicted and hung out to dry by the press with so very little facts to go on other then sounds similar what VW had done, which may or may not be related at all to what FCA may or may not have done.

      1. Fleet guy, the EPA was doing testing and they discovered the cheating calibrations. They discovered it while they were doing their testing and FCA never disclosed the different calibrations. The EPA test and the state test are probably different as the EPA is more thorough because they set the rules. The states just perform a quick test.

        1. Yes I get that, however still all they claim to be looking into is the software, not that the software they found was actually in operation during the test procedure, or that the vehicle was performing sub par, only thing I have read is that they found some software FCA had not disclosed. Difference in this and VWs issue was that the EPA had verified the vehicles were running one software with lower emissions when hooked to a dyno, and different software when driving out on a road, so the new EPA testing procedure now incorporates actual road testing to earn certification. Which in VWs case the vehicles all failed in the actual road testing procedure. Not seeing any claims from the EPA the trucks actually failed, only that they found software that if put into use could cause it to fail, the claim did not say they found the software was in actual use and the vehicles failed the road test.

          To me they could have simply had some diagnostic software or something in there for testing not for actual consumer use and the EPA stumbles across it FCA had failed to disclose or notify the proper channels that it was there and why and here we are.
          That is just one valid scenario I could see making this all this a bit of witch hunt on the EPAs part, and why FCA would be denying the allocations so strongly.

          I would think if the vehicles were found to be failing the actual road test procedures the EPA would have come out and said so in the charges, EPA only mention finding software that was not properly disclosed.

          1. It is all about easy money, the government has found an easy way to get billions of dollars in fines so they can waste more money on programs people don’t need or want.

    16. There too much gasoline in international market, so gasoline has to be pushed.

      EPA: PM emissionf from gasoline direct injection are higher than from “traditional” gasoline engines. Its emission of the smaller PM2.5 is a big problem.
      Why PM rules on GDI engines starts only now in 2017 (slow 2017 to 2021 phase in)?
      A very large share of car sold in U.S.A. use GDI engines that till today were pratically unregulated for PM emissions. Why?

      It is very likely that in next years, to meet regulations, GDI engines will need particulate filter.

      1. @MJAB
        Very true. It is a huge problem and as their so many GDI engines on the road, very few are willing to mention it.

    17. I just decided to pollute differently…end of November I traded my 2015 RAM EcoDiesel for a 2017 Ridgeline (with the Earthdreams GDI engine)…Damned if you do and damned if you don’t…

    18. Only rich folks buy electric cars to park beside their Escalade. Nice to see our tax dollars are helping them out. Hydrogen powered cars are the future. Until then, I’ll keep my diesel.

    19. Take the 1/2 billion needed to qualify a diesel and spend it on a hydrogen infrastructure in California.
      Then sell me a hydrogen v10 ICE hydrogen engine.
      BaBang problems solved.

    20. It’s because the exhaust is so clean; that diesel owners are now using the exhaust from their vehicle as ventilation for their house, so all the methane from their diahrea escapes into the atmosphere. It’s really a methane tax.

      1. Jimmy Johns
        “British, French and German governments, as well as a large public database – surprisingly found Volkswagen to be selling among the cleanest diesel vehicles ”

        Irony in that statement. What the Guardian does not mention other brands
        Have been charged for releasing too much CO2 .
        On highway testing is common for heavy trucks in Europe, but not cars or SUV’s. That will change.

    21. Fleet guy has an excellent point. The EPA has never said that the FIAT diesel engines pollute more than the emissions tests allowed, only that they found software that was not disclosed to them. This is like saying that a 3 point basketball shot didn’t count because the player didn’t disclose the type of Jock Strap he was wearing at the moment.
      The problem is that, when you set a standard on a test, automakers will do all that is required to meet that standard, no more, no less. That they are in business to make a profit is a given so why would we expect them to do more than is required?
      I think that the EPA needs to say, “we have discovered that there are areas that we do not require tests for and so we are changing the tests. Within two years. If you cannot meet those new standards, you cannot sell any of those vehicles until you do”. That way the basketball player will have to wear the new Jock Strap, or he can’t play.
      Yes, Ram is a FIAT product built in North America. It is not an American truck with an Italian engine.
      With FIAT’s record regarding reliability, there may be a lot more to be worried about. The worst nameplate in Consumer Reports Customer surveys is the FIAT line with Chrysler, Dodge and Ram lines coming second to last.
      FIAT has always been known for handsome vehicles, (I loved the 124 and 850 Spyders) but, they have never been a car you could rely on. Even in the days of American auto junk, the FIAT was so bad that it was a standout. American automakers have improved immensely, and I, for one, was hoping that FIAT would also but no, they’re still making trash. The Fix It Again Tony joke was unfortunately accurate in the 60’s and is still accurate today.

    22. @Tote,
      Throw in Jeep in Australia, electrical and mechanical reliability has instigated class actions.
      On the other hand IVECO, Case, John Holland go from strength to strength.
      They are grouped in a separate company to FCA

    23. Come on guys. Most of you will be pulling the DPF and DEF equipment out of your trucks 1500/2500/3500 or the like anyways. I understand what FCA did and despite what many say, this is the very first time that I’ve ever been impressed by a Dodge 1500 series truck. I bought a 2016 Laramie Ecodiesel 4×4 and get near 29 MPG on the highway. I’ve got plenty of pulling power pulling 6k lbs and have no need to haul more, so for me, this fits the bill and then some. Every other manufacturer was sitting around 21 MPG HWY and I couldn’t justify the price tag of a 2500. I’ve had 2 challenges with the vehicle, all of which were defective pieces that upon a PDI may have been tweaked. Chevy trucks, to me, have some of the ugliest styling, GMC has gotten slightly better, and Ford would be great without the EcoBoost. Now, once they release the PowerStroke 3.0L on that lighter aluminum frame, it should get better mileage. Drop a toolbox in the bed of both, however, and we’ll relive the commercial in real life. I think FCA has got things right this time and am thoroughly happy.

      1. I am also quite happy with my ’15 Big Horn ecoDiesel ram 1500. Mine is a lease, so, I will not be changing anything on it for 2 more years. And even then, maybe not. I would puke if my 28.7 on the long trip and 20-22 around town went south if I messed with it. Not to mention, I DO care about the environment. Also, show me an electric vehicle that can go 640 miles without having to refuel. I may consider buying/leasing one. Until then…….

    24. This is just another way the governments around the world have found to make billions of dollars in fines so they can waste more money on stupid programs no body wants or needs.

      Today’s vehicles burn so clean now that all of this is a sick joke.

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